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Murder IS the human condition
murder is natural for man, not a deviation from his humanity

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Murder IS the human condition
ChesireCat
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Posted 06/21/09 - 03:35 AM:
Subject: Murder IS the human condition
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Here’s what’s keeping me up nights lately. It really falls more under the general state of man’s existence.. or ontology… but social science will work, I suppose.
I’m new to the forum, so bear with me...

What brings up my questions about man’s relationship to murder – defined as the taking of another person’s life for reasons of malicious intent – is the issue of unsolved murders. Which means that there are loads of people mixing about in society who are passing for normal. You always hear once they catch them “I’m so devastated, I never would have thought they were capable” or at times “I always thought he was a bit off” but besides the mentally unstable murderers, I want to deal specifically with the stable minded who kill out of passion or whatever reason – malicious intent – but continue to live long, happy, even, lives.

There are too many instances in the news to name them. An interview I saw tonight with a very meek and humble guy who brutally killed a married couple for their boat (ya I watch dateline) - they arrested the guy volunteering at his church with his pregnant wife and 2yr old kid. He admits he did it, for malicious reasons, but you would never peg him as a murderer. And he goes about his life and continues to live and exist without a hint of insanity.
I’m skipping about, but the meat of my question is…. What is man’s relation to murder. I believe, at the moment, that murder is not even an ethical dilemma – most murderers agree they did something wrong even tho they have their “reasons” perhaps. I think it’s an ontological issue. That humans are murderers unless restrained by 1) Threat of punishment 2) social norms 3) religious beliefs 4) self control in a passionate situation that could result in harm to another. And there are probably more reasons. But going back to the guy who killed the married couple for the boat. And that he has not a hint of insanity. I think people tend to think (I tend to overgeneralize) that murder is something the mentally unstable do. And mentally unstable individuals are by social definition “not normal” people. So they’re a deviation from the ideal human. The ideal human on the other hand would never commit murder.
But I would argue the opposite. I would argue that it’s precisely the ideal normal human that’s most capable of murder b/c he least suspects himself capable, perhaps, not sure why yet. So that when his buddy pisses him off and a gun is at hand… before he knows what he’s done he’s killed someone. And if you look at murders committed… we don’t then go lay out the dead and say “here’s a dead guy, bury him” or drop them off at the local morgue…. We humans tend to hide the body. We don’t want others to know what we’ve done. Why is that? I think it’s more primitive an instinct than just “I don’t wanna become Joe Inmate’s personal sperm receptacle.”
I read somewhere that other than man, the only other creatures that murder not-for-food are primates and polar bears.

And then there’s Dostoyevski… and I daren’t criticize the genius…but I wonder if he didn’t over simplify Crime and Punishment and Raskolnikov’s reasons and consequences of murder. There are many whose conscience never convicts them. Even though that same person might agree what they did was socially “wrong”… they might disagree that they themselves were of necessity wrong.

In summa – I think that murder is part of the essential (yet unfortunate) nature of man, which has both its good and darker sides. What renders it an “evil” is the inherent belief that those like us (other humans) deserve self existence as much as we ourselves do. And what makes it possible (I think) is the breakdown of the belief that another human continues to deserve self existence which results in the murderer becoming judge and executioner – whether in a split second emotional reaction or in a well thought out plot.
But tell me more…. Or tell me I’m wrong…
wuliheron
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Posted 06/21/09 - 09:20 AM:
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Humans evolved to live in small hunter-gatherer groups that did not possess such things as hand guns. The US has by far the highest murder rate in developed world (barring only South Africa which is a special case) and roughly half of all these murders go unsolved. Although it is easy enough to kill someone using a hammer or knife or whatever impliment is handy guns account for the vast majority of these murders. Other countries that have outlawed possession of hand guns might have similar numbers of serious assualts involving weapons, but much lower murder rates. Thus the idea that murder is something common that humans have evolved to commit is not supported by the facts. Modern murder rates are by and large a result of extreme social circumstances and/or the availability and common possession of hand guns.


The overwhelming majority of murders are crimes of passion committed in the heat of the moment by friends and relatives of the deceased. Just as many wild animals will impulsively strike out at each other on occation, people do the same. However, in nature such attacks are seldom fatal and rarely last more than a few moments. Tempers may flare, but die down equally rapidly. It is the introduction of modern weapons that causes such fits of temper to become fatal more often.

ViperThunder
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Posted 07/02/09 - 09:44 PM:
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I agree with both posts above. And I will add that, as a mentally-stable person who has previously contemplated killing (especially after reading "Crime and Punishment" in high school), it is easy to go on living sanely in society as a murderer if you take a look at the world around you. The modern world has been formed from countless tragedies and wars. Even outside our artificial world murder and death are commonplace. Killing is a fundamental attribute of the natural cycle on this planet. Thus, I would not feel guilty for killing someone unless I had caused permanent damage to his relatives.

Unlike ChesireCat, however, I think that the only reason we "tend to hide the body" and "don't want others to know what we've done" *is* because of fear of societal consequences. What other reason would there be?
van keister


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Posted 07/03/09 - 03:55 AM:
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"Our hunter gather ancestors had no guns" but they had clubs that bashed brains, spears and stones and were territorial and extremely aggressive as the fossil records discloses. To believe that all we have to do is rid ourselves of guns is the romantic fallacy as is the false belief that if we can eliminate poverty we can eliminate crime. Weapons are an extention of our human nature, which is more genetically determined than most of the cultural anthropologists would like to believe. We are aggressive, territorial, and dominant. These are the qualities that got us here in the first place, our struggle, our courage to overcome the forces of nature, and our dominance. Eliminate these things would be to reduce mankind to sheep, a herd creature ready for extinction. There is something deep our nature that likes guns, a boot in the face, and the smell of napalm in the morning.
knightmare
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Posted 07/03/09 - 10:00 AM:
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I agree with wuliheron's assertion that the availability of guns is largely responsible for the high amount of murders committed in the US. Since any murders are crimes of passion, like a perceived lack of disrespect, the lethality of guns over melee weapons increases the murder rate, not the violence rate necessarily, since people can recover from other weapons more than guns. Also, I think guns are more impersonal to use than melee weapons, so its probably preferred over other weapons. So I do believe in the violent tendencies in human nature, but technology has allowed for more convenient and concealable weapons, which is preferred over primitive ones, especially in a society with major repercussions to the crime of murder.
123savethewhales
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Posted 07/03/09 - 06:30 PM:
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It is true that our cooperative part of our brain (the frontal lobe) takes a lot more time to operate than our more self oriented limbic system. Reducing the time it takes to commit a murder while increase the distance certainly can lead to more successful murders being committed.

Although I am probably oversimplifying since a lot of heroic acts also spawn from the heat of the moment.

Edited by 123savethewhales on 07/03/09 - 06:37 PM

Keep it simple.
sparrowminded
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Posted 07/03/09 - 11:51 PM:
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I've had occasion to think about this. Firstly, I believe that our laws and social attitudes compel us first to hide the murder impulse. If not for all of that, I can well imagine that I could have a much more casual attitude about knocking off that infrequent candidate who impresses me as being "too stupid to live". You encounter them too: those who are here only because society has become so accommodating that even the entirely inept are allowed to carry on. Most recently, I recall that short, fat, smelly woman in line at the grocery store in front of me, with her 9 children. None of them speak a single word of American English. She is utterly surprised when the clerk demands payment. We watch as she digs around in her purse and tries a charge card that has no remaining balance. Then the debit, which is $40 short. Oh wait! She waves a small handful of WIC coupons! Wonderful. We dig back through the pile of groceries, looking for discounts. Some time later, I'm fantasizing about how pleasant it would be to simply place her, along with the groceries and her little herd on the feed belt of the local coal fired power plant. That would certainly be her first and only contribution to society.
I refuse to believe that handguns are to blame when many countries in and around the UK have passed laws against glass bottles in public. That works, too. A good stout boot lace makes a marvelous garrote.
I have my handguns with me at ALL times, unless I'm at work. I reload for the pistols, and practice regularly so that I maintain an intimate familiarity with every single one of my firearms. I have had to draw on several people, and fire on at least 3 different occasions, but I have never found it necessary to wound anyone. Guns don't kill people.
Yes, it's in us. Check this little rundown on crime regarding Los Angeles:
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Los+Angeles&state=CA and this one for other US cities:
http://www.cityrating.com/cityguides.asp
If you look into this, you find that the majority of homicides in places that have high rates is a matter of morons killing morons. NOT a social problem. Just as it is with the much publicized drug wars in Mexico. If you look at the demographics, you quickly find that those who are not fit to participate in society are eliminating themselves and one-another. Guns are convenient, but there is a reason why ER's are called the KNIFE and gun club. That's life in the big city.
I think it has a whole lot to do with age groups as well. When I was younger, it was typical of me to go out hunting rabbits, prairie dogs, or whatever turned out to be convenient. I got older. Just today, I found a Desert Tortoise in a place where he was very likely to be harassed by young human males. I plunked him down on the passenger seat, beside my Glock pistol and Canon DSLR, and carried him off to a much safer place. On the way back, I spotted a small rattlesnake and a Red Racer, and photographed them both. I prefer to practice a way of living that imbues all living creatures with peace and good will. When I can get a bird to eat from my hand and a little kid to wave back at me, I'm having a good day. Still, I carry a small bag with me, everywhere but at work, that contains one of my Glock pistols and 250 rounds of ammo loaded into magazines at the ready. Why? Because I read in my deepest spiritual studies: "If you see God coming, kill him." Chew on that.

Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Therein lies the Peace of God.
123savethewhales
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Posted 07/04/09 - 12:10 AM:
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sparrowminded wrote:
If you look into this, you find that the majority of homicides in places that have high rates is a matter of morons killing morons. NOT a social problem. Just as it is with the much publicized drug wars in Mexico. If you look at the demographics, you quickly find that those who are not fit to participate in society are eliminating themselves and one-another

Let me get this strait, you are suggesting that people deserve to be murdered for living (or being born into) a particular area of the city?

Keep it simple.
ant4ddd
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Posted 07/04/09 - 01:40 AM:
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sparrowminded wrote:

If you look into this, you find that the majority of homicides in places that have high rates is a matter of morons killing morons. NOT a social problem.



If in society you have areas where there are high murder rates it is precisely SOCIAL PROBLEM. Do you believe that if you are raised by uneducated drug-dealer("moron"smiling face) you have a good chance to go to Harvard?

Regarding the topic. I think murder or killing is innate in us. But our behavior is strongly dependent on social structures. So in more advanced societies(i.e. scandinavia) there are less murders and other archaic behaviors/tendencies(religion, nationalismsmiling face) which are based on certain emotions.
ciceronianus
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Posted 07/04/09 - 03:33 AM:
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There's no reason not to criticize Dostoyevsky. Genius he may have been, but he was also a very excitable, histrionic fellow, and very much a part of his time and place. People are constantly killing others, or themselves, for various bad reasons in his fiction, most of them having to do with what apparently was for Dostoyevsky the horrifying thought that God as commonly understood just might not be around to take care of him.

In any event, there are those of us who kill others, and even more of us who think about killing others, but must of us don't. So, I doubt murder is an essential part of being a human, or a "natural" part if that is what is meant. Many get through life without killing someone, or even themselves. You may as well claim that rape is the human condition, or the male human condition. It's something of a overstatement.

"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey
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