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Murder IS the human condition
murder is natural for man, not a deviation from his humanity

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Murder IS the human condition
sparrowminded
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Posted 07/05/09 - 01:41 AM:
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#11
In no way did I say that anyone deserves to be killed. I did say that if the crabgrass and dandelions are killing one-another, it isn't a problem for the garden.
If you want to stretch all the way into analyzing the life conditions of others, which is NONE of your business, you'll soon arrive at a non-sustainable society, such as Kalifornistan. I've had deeply serious issues to deal with, too, but it hasn't resulted in any death. If we are to carry on with that scenario, we need to cut very quickly to the chase, and establish a system of monitoring and testing prospective parents for eligibility. This would be the fastest and most efficient way to ensure that ours becomes a more evolved society.
In asking if murder IS the human condition, you have to be prepared to accept the fact that we are warlike. If we want to eliminate that trait in humankind, we need to go about it as a very deliberate project, with a variety of methods. Strangely enough, this would involve things like selective breeding, to include sterilization in many cases. Then, someone will say that vasectomy is a kind of abortion before the fact of conception. Maybe there's no winner in this discussion.

Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Therein lies the Peace of God.
cairo
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Posted 07/05/09 - 08:58 AM:
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#12

In no way did I say that anyone deserves to be killed. I did say that if the crabgrass and dandelions are killing one-another, it isn't a problem for the garden.


That analogy runs on the assumption that the crabgrass and the dandelions are in the garden but don't belong there. However, there's no such place as "outside of society", and there's no fundamental difference between a dandelion and a lily.


If we want to eliminate that trait in humankind, we need to go about it as a very deliberate project, with a variety of methods. Strangely enough, this would involve things like selective breeding, to include sterilization in many cases.


It seems llike a very improbable solution because aggression is not easily quantifiable. There is not way to determine whether a person's criminal history has been determined by genetics or by circumstance. Moreover, aggression can often be a positive trait, if it is sublimated into productive activities such as competition.


 


 


Education is the process of casting false pearls before real swine.
mway
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Posted 07/05/09 - 04:53 PM:
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#13

All actions are the 'human condition' & natural. If they weren't they would never have been performed. Our relation to murder, is the same relation to any other action; it emerged, and it was done.

Lame is to Wav, as the Brain is to Reality.
123savethewhales
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Posted 07/05/09 - 06:36 PM:
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sparrowminded wrote:
In no way did I say that anyone deserves to be killed. I did say that if the crabgrass and dandelions are killing one-another, it isn't a problem for the garden.
If you want to stretch all the way into analyzing the life conditions of others, which is NONE of your business, you'll soon arrive at a non-sustainable society, such as Kalifornistan. I've had deeply serious issues to deal with, too, but it hasn't resulted in any death. If we are to carry on with that scenario, we need to cut very quickly to the chase, and establish a system of monitoring and testing prospective parents for eligibility. This would be the fastest and most efficient way to ensure that ours becomes a more evolved society.
In asking if murder IS the human condition, you have to be prepared to accept the fact that we are warlike. If we want to eliminate that trait in humankind, we need to go about it as a very deliberate project, with a variety of methods. Strangely enough, this would involve things like selective breeding, to include sterilization in many cases. Then, someone will say that vasectomy is a kind of abortion before the fact of conception. Maybe there's no winner in this discussion.

To relate human life within an entire community to crabgrass and dandelions in privately owned garden requires a higher authority, the gardener, to overrule and judge which crop requires protecting and which one isn't. It also requires an authority to make the call that everyone within the given community to be either crabgrass or dandelions. I am assuming you consider yourself the gardener.

Not that I am particularly for or against your point of view, I simply want to put a human face onto this if what we are talking about is the exclusion of entire community as "disposable human beings".

Keep it simple.
sparrowminded
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Posted 07/06/09 - 01:06 AM:
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#15
You can say "disposable human beings" if you want. You can say there's a gardener if you want. I don't agree that I appoint myself as that. We get so far into this stuff that we zoom right past the basis of everything, which is natural selection. That's one obvious example of how to run things. In a social extension of natural selection, it would be very easy to reduce everything to a kind of social balance. Let's say that our John Doe example dropped out of public school in the 10th. grade. Within 7 months, he was in prison for a minor felony. He got out, and 14 months later, he was jailed for several lesser crimes, which led to a warrant search, and landed him more time for another felony. He gets out after 2 years, and within weeks, he is killed by rival gang members. He has proven that he has no intention of contributing anything to society. He has proven that he intends to remain a burden on all of us for as long as he lives. He won't be missed.
OF COURSE social science has come far enough to enact a program where eligible parents can be distinguished from people who have dysfunctional backgrounds. If I was raised by a single, crack addicted mother who entertained several "boyfriends" a week, and didn't care a whole lot if I got fed, or bathed or schooled, would anyone claim that I had been trained to be a decent parent? Would anyone claim that any degree of respect for life had been instilled in me? If we could prevent people from having to live in this way by preventing birth in such households, wouldn't that serve everyone better? -including, and maybe especially the people who had been spared that fate? Why is it so hard for some to contribute to this sort of discussion? We are in a non-sustainable social fix right now, and it cannot be improved unless we improve it. Right now, the US maintains the highest per capita prison population in human history. We maintain the highest per capita divorce rate in human history. Do we see a pattern? The US is producing the highest per capita number of dysfunctional human beings that has ever existed. What is your CONTRIBUTION?

Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Therein lies the Peace of God.
Willowz
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Posted 07/06/09 - 09:14 AM:
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#16
sparrowminded wrote:
Most recently, I recall that short, fat, smelly woman in line at the grocery store in front of me, with her 9 children. None of them speak a single word of American English. She is utterly surprised when the clerk demands payment. We watch as she digs around in her purse and tries a charge card that has no remaining balance. Then the debit, which is $40 short. Oh wait! She waves a small handful of WIC coupons! Wonderful. We dig back through the pile of groceries, looking for discounts. Some time later, I'm fantasizing about how pleasant it would be to simply place her, along with the groceries and her little herd on the feed belt of the local coal fired power plant.

You are a still living example of my deep conviction why guns should be illegal. A gun in the hand of a sociopath...


Edited by Willowz on 07/06/09 - 09:22 AM

This song will prepare you for a good smile.
ciceronianus
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Posted 07/06/09 - 12:08 PM:
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#17

Why am I reminded of the song "Rottweiler Blues" by the late, great Warren Zevon?


"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey
ViperThunder
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Posted 07/06/09 - 02:27 PM:
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sparrowminded wrote:
Why is it so hard for some to contribute to this sort of discussion? We are in a non-sustainable social fix right now, and it cannot be improved unless we improve it. Right now, the US maintains the highest per capita prison population in human history. We maintain the highest per capita divorce rate in human history. Do we see a pattern? The US is producing the highest per capita number of dysfunctional human beings that has ever existed. What is your CONTRIBUTION?

I say, let America go down the drain! I certainly feel no need nor desire to contribute to its improbable salvation. Time to give another country a chance to rule the world. Our country has hogged the pedestal for far too long.

As for the subject of population control & selective breeding in modern societies, I'd say it is a good idea. I don't think reproduction should be a right if you live in a modern society.

But murdering someone and their 9 children is sure to breed only more of the same hateful kind of human beings that were involved to begin with. (Just think about how many people become murderers simply because of a news article they read or a TV program they saw that catalyzed them to callous aspirations--when people lose faith in their fellow species, they themselves become careless, hateful, and become exactly like the thing that they despise)
sparrowminded
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Posted 07/07/09 - 01:38 AM:
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#19
You guyz are pretty funny. It's one thing to fantasize, and quite another to plot or propose. Someone had mentioned "more developed cultures", and I cited examples of how we are far from that. Still, I see no contributions here. I see frightened little children, hiding under the bed; afraid that there may be an end to leftist liberal logic.

Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Therein lies the Peace of God.
ciceronianus
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Posted 07/07/09 - 06:26 AM:
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#20



sparrowminded wrote:
You guyz are pretty funny. It's one thing to fantasize, and quite another to plot or propose. Someone had mentioned "more developed cultures", and I cited examples of how we are far from that. Still, I see no contributions here. I see frightened little children, hiding under the bed; afraid that there may be an end to leftist liberal logic.


 


If only those children had automatic weapons!  Then they wouldn't be frightened, would they?


"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey
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