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Moral Freedom
Choosing your own sense of justice and fariness

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Moral Freedom

cortes
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Posted 04/16/08 - 09:06 AM:	#26
Techeth wrote: cortes wrote: This brings us back to the subject of moral freedom. If youre values are aligned with those dominant in society you are more likely to risk your life defending those values. If not, you might even be pleased by the threat. There are many Americans, for example, who were rooting for the Soviet Union to win the Cold War. I agree, I'm not sure what you're point is though. One way to think about it is to ask what is "society" (or more precisely, each society that you encounter) doing to attract your allegience? Contrary to what Glypt et alia claim, you can choose your level of participation. You can choose which society to join and how you wish to participate in that society. Some constraints come from without but the world, such as it is, give you great lattitude to choose from within.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

litkey
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Posted 04/17/08 - 03:15 AM:	#27
Cortes, are you back on the glue again??? How can you "choose" which society to join- let alone what participation to play? I told you, keep the glue to the weekends.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

cortes
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Posted 04/17/08 - 08:15 AM:	#28
litkey wrote: How can you "choose" which society to join- let alone what participation to play? Really, this is so elementary. In terms of the first: With respect to nations, I can emigrate. With respect to states and cities, I can move. With respect to social societies and religions I can simply join or quit. For example, I choose whether I join the Knights of Columbs or the Rotary Club or when I quit those. I can choose my wife and together we can choose whether or not to have kids. In terms of the second: With respect to nation, state, city, I be a mere resident or I can get involved in politics and local society, join the army, become a politician. With respect to social societies and relgions, I can merely join or go to every event/meeting and participate in every program. With respect to family I can be detached, even sepearated or full-time involved. As you can plainly see, the real question is not whether I can choose which societies to join and when to join them and how much to participate in them. The real queastion is why this is such a foreign idea to you when it is common sense to everyone else.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

Techeth
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Posted 04/17/08 - 08:36 AM:	#29
Okay I understand and agree I just thought you were trying to make a point in saying it or at least a point to me.
_____________________ Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon

litkey
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Posted 04/17/08 - 08:40 AM:	#30
cortes wrote: In terms of the first: With respect to nations, I can emigrate. With respect to states and cities, I can move. Again, you have simplified and gone outside the context that you were discussing; a person found in a society can no more choose the society than he can choose the size of his feet. You paint the picture as if there were a room, where a man can enter, and look up the myriad societies and suddenly come to a eureka moment- "yes, I'll chose this society!" Why don't you take a little journey to Zimbabwe and inform them of your wonderful argument. With respect to social societies and religions I can simply join or quit. For example, I choose whether I join the Knights of Columbs or the Rotary Club or when I quit those. I can choose my wife and together we can choose whether or not to have kids. In terms of the second: With respect to nation, state, city, I be a mere resident or I can get involved in politics and local society, join the army, become a politician. With respect to social societies and relgions, I can merely join or go to every event/meeting and participate in every program. With respect to family I can be detached, even sepearated or full-time involved. As you can plainly see, the real question is not whether I can choose which societies to join and when to join them and how much to participate in them. The real queastion is why this is such a foreign idea to you when it is common sense to everyone else. How is this common sense? You are putting the cart, once again, before the horse, or allowing the frog to suckle at the hen - hen's don't usually allow such behaviour! If you are born, then you will tend to be male, white, christian, babtist, yadayadayada... What IS common sense is that who you are today is largely a result of things completely outside your so-called "choices". You really need to get of the glue man, or atleast have your brain cleaned out again.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

cortes
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Posted 04/17/08 - 09:21 AM:	#31
Techeth wrote: Okay I understand and agree I just thought you were trying to make a point in saying it or at least a point to me. Sorry, it's not always easy to disginguish between pointing to the sky and speaking profoundly. As you can see below, my point is not obvoius to all. litkey wrote: Again, you have simplified and gone outside the context that you were discussing; a person found in a society can no more choose the society than he can choose the size of his feet. I just gave you a long list of examples of how people can choose the society they live in and their level of participation in it. That list just scratches the surface because I'm lazy; I would think that anyone with two brain cells to rub together to infer far more. In what sense does that not answer the question? litkey wrote: You paint the picture as if there were a room, where a man can enter, and look up the myriad societies and suddenly come to a eureka moment- "yes, I'll chose this society!" Why don't you take a little journey to Zimbabwe and inform them of your wonderful argument. I could certainly choose to emigrate to Zimbabwe and there are Zimbabweans who had the good sense to leave. Now if your point is that it's not trivial to choose societies, that depends on the cirucmstances. Even to move from one city to another is a bit of a hassle but that hardly invalidates my point that we can choose the societies we join and our level of participation in them. litkey wrote: How is this common sense? You are putting the cart, once again, before the horse, or allowing the frog to suckle at the hen - hen's don't usually allow such behaviour! If you are born, then you will tend to be male, white, christian, babtist, yadayadayada... "Male"? I can have a sex change and switch my "gender society". "Christian, baptist"? I can quit those and become a Buddhist or a animist. My God, man, think about the choices you have for a change. litkey wrote: What IS common sense is that who you are today is largely a result of things completely outside your so-called "choices". If you choose to sit in a stew of your own natural condition, that is your choice. But, as Rush says, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

ugx2000
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Posted 04/17/08 - 07:28 PM:	#32
cortes wrote: But by almost any reasonable definition of justice, our very existence is unjust. What did you ever do to deserve being born? This question is incorrect in every way. As one is not in existence, one can not earn. As fertalization of an egg by a sperm cell is chance, so is a persons life. There is no context for deserving or not in this situation. It just happens. cortes wrote: The fact is that there is nothing that you could possibly have done prior to your existence that would merit your coming into being. The simple fact is that you got something for nothing and every breath you draw is an act of unjust opportunism. Thank God the world is so unfair. Given something? Merit your conception? (same as above) Every breath you draw is unjust? (below) Justice is the application of laws derived from correct moral abstraction. A correct moral abstraction, is based on the nature of that which it applies to. It pertains to consious choice, and the action that proceeds from that choice. Not to autonomic functions. Quick note: You may disagree with someone. You may decide you do not like them. You might think they are ________(fill in the blank). But try to keep ad hominem attacks and insults out of the forum. I am refering to the "glue sniffing" comment. Make your case, leave out the trash. It serves no good purpose. Edited by ugx2000 on 04/17/08 - 07:36 PM
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cortes
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Posted 04/17/08 - 09:40 PM:	#33
ugx2000 wrote: cortes wrote: But by almost any reasonable definition of justice, our very existence is unjust. What did you ever do to deserve being born? This question is incorrect in every way. As one is not in existence, one can not earn. As fertalization of an egg by a sperm cell is chance, so is a persons life. There is no context for deserving or not in this situation. It just happens. That doesn't make the question incorrect, it makes it trivial. The fact that you had no opportunity to earn your birth does not deny that you did not earn your birth, it merely explains it. ugx2000 wrote: cortes wrote: Given something? Merit your conception? (same as above) Every breath you draw is unjust? (below) Justice is the application of laws derived from correct moral abstraction. A correct moral abstraction, is based on the nature of that which it applies to. It pertains to consious choice, and the action that proceeds from that choice. Not to autonomic functions. Your continued existence is not automatic. You could exterminate yourself and make the world more just. The target of my point are those who claim that we have a moral duty to correct the injustices of the world such as inequality. Inequality is as natural as existence. If I am supposed to justify my unequal condition, as many in these several threads have claimed, they why not require justification of existence?
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

litkey
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Posted 04/21/08 - 05:33 AM:	#34
cortes wrote: I just gave you a long list of examples of how people can choose the society they live in and their level of participation in it. That list just scratches the surface because I'm lazy; I would think that anyone with two brain cells to rub together to infer far more. In what sense does that not answer the question? Well you should rub them together and you might get some sparks. If you are born into a society how on earth can you choose one? Again, there is no great mystery to this, if a person does "CHOOSE" a religion, tribe, historical group etc., they are doing so from their own cultural and linguistical society - there is no escaping this. This is why every person you meet in your town will have similar beliefs/thoughts/ideas. "choosing" a society sounds like a Rawlsian Thought Experiment. I could certainly choose to emigrate to Zimbabwe and there are Zimbabweans who had the good sense to leave. But does a person choose? Hasn't the circumstances brought this about? And in any case, a person can leave Zimbabwe, but they remain a Zimbabwian. You see that, yeah? "Male"? I can have a sex change and switch my "gender society". "Christian, baptist"? I can quit those and become a Buddhist or a animist. My God, man, think about the choices you have for a change. I'll say this one more time, then leave it, as I think we disagree - THERE IS NO CHOICE FOR YOU TO MAKE. One day you'll see this truism.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

rakis
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Posted 04/21/08 - 07:20 AM:	#35
When a human being is brought into society, he is socialized by the predominant ideology. i.e. in contemporary nation-states, it becomes a citizen, a patriot , a father etc. Ideology conceals the historical character of these constructions and structures the identity of a person, presenting such conformity as ontologically real and a-historical. So free-will is a difficult task. Do I see a pathway? Yes. In the contradictory character of social relations. Ideology does not cover everything. It is in its relational essence contradictory. This could be the start for realizing that something in us must change. Such a self-reflection may give rise to a volition for social transformation

cortes
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Posted 04/21/08 - 08:45 AM:	#36
litkey wrote: ...if a person does "CHOOSE" a religion, tribe, historical group etc., they are doing so from their own cultural and linguistical society - there is no escaping this....THERE IS NO CHOICE FOR YOU TO MAKE. One day you'll see this truism. You seem weded to your belief in determinism. Be my guest. I do wonder what caused your belief in determinism. Was it something in your environment perhaps? Because the one thing we can be certain of is that you did not choose to believe in determinism because it was true.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

cortes
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Posted 04/21/08 - 09:07 AM:	#37
rakis wrote: When a human being is brought into society, he is socialized by the predominant ideology. i.e. in contemporary nation-states, it becomes a citizen, a patriot , a father etc. Ideology conceals the historical character of these constructions and structures the identity of a person, presenting such conformity as ontologically real and a-historical. Unless you are from North Korea, nation-state ideology was probably the smallest influence on your social development. rakis wrote: So free-will is a difficult task.Do I see a pathway? Yes. In the contradictory character of social relations. Ideology does not cover everything. It is in its relational essence contradictory. This could be the start for realizing that something in us must change. Such a self-reflection may give rise to a volition for social transformation I must say I find it fascinating how many people manage to talk themselves into believing in determinism.How exactly will you realize anything except that which your environment has determined that you should realize? How can "self-reflection...give rise to a volition for social transformation" except through the exercise of free will?
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

rakis
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Posted 04/21/08 - 02:10 PM:	#38
If you’d paid more attention to my writings you’d realize that I’ve bolstered a potentiality of freeing ourselves from exploitation. I’m optimistic about the emancipatory promise, but not through an idealistic voluntarism. I give primacy to the contradictory character of social relations, suggesting that a social transformation is possible. It could or it could not happen. So I’m not a determinist. I accept causality but also the contingent and the aleatory.

cortes
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Posted 04/21/08 - 02:32 PM:	#39
rakis wrote: If you’d paid more attention to my writings you’d realize that I’ve bolstered a potentiality of freeing ourselves from exploitation. I’m optimistic about the emancipatory promise, but not through an idealistic voluntarism. I give primacy to the contradictory character of social relations, suggesting that a social transformation is possible. It could or it could not happen. So I’m not a determinist. I accept causality but also the contingent and the aleatory. Thanks, but no thainks. Your "solution" is not interesting to me because I I am not "exploited". I don't need to be "emancipated". What is the problem you think you are solving? (You say you are not a determinist but I think you are confused about this.)
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

rakis
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Posted 04/21/08 - 11:16 PM:	#40
a classical bourgeois answer

litkey
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Posted 04/22/08 - 02:20 AM:	#41
cortes wrote: You seem weded to your belief in determinism. Be my guest. I do wonder what caused your belief in determinism. Was it something in your environment perhaps? Because the one thing we can be certain of is that you did not choose to believe in determinism because it was true. Look, we can attack determinism and "free" will until the sheep stop bah-ing, but the prevailing fact is that you were determined, you never chose to be you, as you never chose to be born in whatever country - these are the contingencies that I though we had prior agreed upon. Well, last night I had a dream about writing a thriller, a story so good, that the Marathon Man (William Goldman) will be shiting in its pants...but this is because I have read fiction, I have watched many thrillers before - my idea (s) does not come from a vacuum: and neither do yours - right? We can at least agree upon this point? Ofcourse we have that certain feeling...that we 'chose' and if called upon to explain our choice (s) in relation to the determinism-free will argument we might even say "well, I could have chose otherwise." - But I just don't know, it seems as though time does more of the chosing than we do.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

cortes
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Posted 04/22/08 - 07:08 AM:	#42
litkey wrote: Look, we can attack determinism and "free" will until the sheep stop bah-ing, but the prevailing fact is that you were determined, you never chose to be you, as you never chose to be born in whatever country - these are the contingencies that I though we had prior agreed upon. You can be a victim of your circumstances if you choose. I won't stop you. But you are confusing facts and contingencies. We agreed that there are facts. We did not agree that the present is contingent on the past, that facts determine the future. (The mere possibility of indeterminism is enough to throw a monkey wrench in that model.) The question is not about the status of a given instant but the cause/effects of the past on the future. litkey wrote: Well, last night I had a dream about writing a thriller, a story so good, that the Marathon Man (William Goldman) will be shiting in its pants...but this is because I have read fiction, I have watched many thrillers before - my idea (s) does not come from a vacuum: and neither do yours - right? We can at least agree upon this point? Ofcourse we have that certain feeling...that we 'chose' and if called upon to explain our choice (s) in relation to the determinism-free will argument we might even say "well, I could have chose otherwise." - But I just don't know, it seems as though time does more of the chosing than we do. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps fate is an illusion? After all, we only ever get to see one path of outcomes. I'm willing to bet my next month's dividends and capital gains that you don't really believe in fate. And I am genuinely curious why you cling to the idea. Is it because you think science is cool and science presumes determinism? Is it because you don't want to take responsibility for your present or your future circumstances? Is it because you think that making willful choices is immoral?
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

Techeth
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Posted 04/22/08 - 06:59 PM:	#43
I don't know if this is a contradiction but I do believe in fate and I also believe you can change it. I wonder if Cortes agrees, but your circumstances can lead you along a certain path, when lets say the path of least resistance is followed, a person is following their fate, but when they decided to consciously change their path they change their fate. I would agree that this is not that common an occurance on a life altering scale, although awarness of the opportunity to do so is probably quite common. Is that paycheck on the table for anyone?
_____________________ Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon

cortes
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Posted 04/22/08 - 07:31 PM:	#44
Techeth wrote: I don't know if this is a contradiction but I do believe in fate and I also believe you can change it. I wonder if Cortes agrees, but your circumstances can lead you along a certain path, when lets say the path of least resistance is followed, a person is following their fate, but when they decided to consciously change their path they change their fate. I would agree that this is not that common an occurance on a life altering scale, although awarness of the opportunity to do so is probably quite common. Strictly speaking, that is a contradiction. But it is true that people sometimes speak of changing their fate. What they usually mean by this is that they believe that they have small windows of opportunity to make changes in an otherwise unchangable progression of events. And to be sure, sometimes small events can have big consequences. But I do agree with your description. In fact, I suspect that it goes a long way toward explaining why some people talk themselves into believing in fate. If you believe in fate then you're just a victim being carried along by the flow of events. But to exercise free will requires being conscious not only about what is but about possibilities. And let's be honest, most of the interesting possibilities require work in large part because the low hanging fruit tends to get picked first. Now the real question I would put to you is this: do you belive that you have small windows of opportunity or do you believe that you have all the opportunity that you are willing to work for? There is a Conquistadorian saying, "Chance may favor the prepared mind."
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

litkey
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Posted 04/23/08 - 02:29 AM:	#45
cortes wrote: You can be a victim of your circumstances if you choose. I won't stop you. I agree with this type of thinking, that is to say, I believe we should not be victims of circumstance. However, this does not equate to a person having complete freedom over "choice." If you read over that sentence, something about it does not make sense - in a circumstance you will act as best as you know how to act; for example, say the circumstance was to arouse fear or dread and death was at hand - how are you going to act? In most cases people will act 1- from a survival instinct (human nature) or 2- From what they have previously learned: memory. But you are confusing facts and contingencies. We agreed that there are facts. We did not agree that the present is contingent on the past, that facts determine the future. (The mere possibility of indeterminism is enough to throw a monkey wrench in that model.) The question is not about the status of a given instant but the cause/effects of the past on the future. You're a little of kilter here, and I wouldn't use such an argument in company. Ofcourse the present is contingent on the past, every single moment is determined from a past moment - that isn't the issue at stake here...remember? You tend to think you can stop the present moment, and as such make a "free" choice. Its a nice idea, but a little on the fantasy side of things. What actually do you mean when you say "'free' choice"? Because that might just be the sticking point. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps fate is an illusion? I agree in a sense with what Techeth was saying above - there is a strong sense both of 1- free will (we have control) but IRONICALLY, there is also the sense that we are on a journey or a conquest and that whatever happens is outside our control; I think the Buddhist thinking on this, to put in plain - "there are too many things outside our control [that we don't understand]". It's certainly Interesting to say the least. I'm willing to bet my next month's dividends and capital gains that you don't really believe in fate. And I am genuinely curious why you cling to the idea. You're probably right, I think I more believe that I am in control, and I am the determiner of my existence, and ready for what problems come..etc., but I wouldn't say it was true - that would be foolish. Is it because you don't want to take responsibility for your present or your future circumstances? There is a mass of literature on this subject, and in actual fact, the responsibility argument is with you. For example, take black people locked up in jail in america, they are locked away for their crimes - they did X,Y,Z and sent down for 15-30 years/death sentence. One argument that the law uses is one of responsibility, the Individual never took control over his or her choices. But in 'some' cases when you exam the situation, you end up thinking "shit, this person was destined to be fucked up!"
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

Techeth
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Posted 04/23/08 - 06:49 AM:	#46
I would agree you have all the opportunity you work for, but how hard can you work. In the end most people succumb to fate, even if it is only after they have changed theirs. Fate can be many things for example it could be my fate to end up like my father, but I hate my father so I do everything in my power to be different, then my fate could also be that I will have a child that will grow to hate me. At some point I may become aware of an opportunity to change that fate but the cost may seem too high. Edited by Techeth on 04/23/08 - 07:12 AM
_____________________ Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon

cortes
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Posted 04/23/08 - 09:27 AM:	#47
Techeth wrote: I would agree you have all the opportunity you work for, but how hard can you work. In the end most people succumb to fate, even if it is only after they have changed theirs. Fate can be many things for example it could be my fate to end up like my father, but I hate my father so I do everything in my power to be different, then my fate could also be that I will have a child that will grow to hate me. At some point I may become aware of an opportunity to change that fate but the cost may seem too high. When I read that last sentence the image that popped into my head is of a pot-bellied guy slouched on a couch tapping on his game controller. I agree that all of us tend to take the easy path and to "succumb to fate" but just recognizing the power that you have to change yourself and your environment is the first step. If you believe in determinism and fate then you won't even take that first step. The other point to consider is that we all find some things easier than other people do. What you want to look for is your unique ability, something you do well and enjoy that others value. Artists don't think doing art is too much trouble. They love doing it. (Regarding your father, you would do well to decide what you are pursuing rather than what you are escaping. If you pursue something, even or especially because it is different from your father, you are more likely to have a healthy life that your children will value and admire you for.)
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cortes
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Posted 04/23/08 - 09:47 AM:	#48
litkey wrote: I agree with this type of thinking, that is to say, I believe we should not be victims of circumstance. However, this does not equate to a person having complete freedom over "choice." If you read over that sentence, something about it does not make sense - in a circumstance you will act as best as you know how to act; for example, say the circumstance was to arouse fear or dread and death was at hand - how are you going to act? In most cases people will act 1- from a survival instinct (human nature) or 2- From what they have previously learned: memory. I notice that you snuck in the word "complete" there. I can't let that go without notice because it is all the difference in the world. Obviously, at any instant, we are dealing with hard, unalterable facts that define our options. Interestingly, i have read a great deal about, and done some training in, self defense. The most important thing to do to prepare yourself is to work out decisions ahead of time and to train for acting out those decisions. The choices are mostly made beforehand. (And if you don't make these choices beforehand you are likely to freeze like a deer in the headlights.) That is also true of our daily lives in general, we often act out of habit. But even then we can choose to develop particular habits by focused attention and we can expose ourselves to new ideas by reading and interacting with others. litkey wrote: You're a little of kilter here, and I wouldn't use such an argument in company. Ofcourse the present is contingent on the past, every single moment is determined from a past moment - that isn't the issue at stake here...remember? You tend to think you can stop the present moment, and as such make a "free" choice. Its a nice idea, but a little on the fantasy side of things. What actually do you mean when you say "'free' choice"? Because that might just be the sticking point. You say "of course" but in fact there is no reason to believe that "every single moment is determined from a past moment". You are simply asserting this to be true. And I am disagreeing. Never mind for the moment what I mean by "free", just consider that if there were anything genuinely random about the universe then past moments woud not, in fact, determine future moments. litkey wrote: I agree in a sense with what Techeth was saying above - there is a strong sense both of 1- free will (we have control) but IRONICALLY, there is also the sense that we are on a journey or a conquest and that whatever happens is outside our control; I think the Buddhist thinking on this, to put in plain - "there are too many things outside our control [that we don't understand]". It's certainly Interesting to say the least. As I pointed out before, what is interesting about this is that there is no way to reason or experiment to determine which is correct. It could be that fate is an illusion and that we underestimate the choice and control we have or that choice is an illusion and that everything was determined at the big bang. But even if the later is true, there is no harm in choosing to believe the former. litkey wrote: You're probably right, I think I more believe that I am in control, and I am the determiner of my existence, and ready for what problems come..etc., but I wouldn't say it was true - that would be foolish. Well, that is interesting. Why do you feel foolish saying that it is true? As noted above, I agree we can't prove it to be true. But it does make sense to proceed as if it were true. litkey wrote: There is a mass of literature on this subject, and in actual fact, the responsibility argument is with you. For example, take black people locked up in jail in america, they are locked away for their crimes - they did X,Y,Z and sent down for 15-30 years/death sentence. One argument that the law uses is one of responsibility, the Individual never took control over his or her choices. But in 'some' cases when you exam the situation, you end up thinking "shit, this person was destined to be fucked up!" There is indeed a rich mine of research on this. But at the end of the day, the people most likely to be sitting in jail are the ones who gave up and the ones most likely to be making something of their lives are the ones to took responsibility for their choices. Maybe that is just a coincidence but I'm willing to bet my life it is not. What is truly sad is how many people offer rationalizations of fate as a consolation to those sitting in jail while they, themselves, lead responsible, thoughful lives.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

Techeth
Graduate

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Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 159

Posted 04/23/08 - 04:40 PM:	#49
cortes wrote: When I read that last sentence the image that popped into my head is of a pot-bellied guy slouched on a couch tapping on his game controller. Where as you may have decsribed me quite well I think that's an over statement. I think its too easy to say that any one individual has the ability to control their environment to their choosing. For example I have a cousin that is not doing so well with his life, I know how to help him, but to do so would require me commiting a large part of my life to him. You seem to suggest its only laziness that prevents me from making that sacrifice. But if you believe people can master their own fate you at some point must decide how far you will go to change it for them, especially when that fate clashes with your view of your own. cortes wrote: I agree that all of us tend to take the easy path and to "succumb to fate" but just recognizing the power that you have to change yourself and your environment is the first step. If you believe in determinism and fate then you won't even take that first step. I agree we can blame our enivornments for what we are when we are slaves to them but we can not blame them for why we are what we are. Sometimes the summit of the mountain can be out of sight, I can understand when people give in to fate, as long as they take responsibility for it, I don't begrudge them the choice they make. cortes wrote: (Regarding your father, you would do well to decide what you are pursuing rather than what you are escaping. If you pursue something, even or especially because it is different from your father, you are more likely to have a healthy life that your children will value and admire you for.) Actually this was a fictional senario lol but I do know of a very successful man who swears if his father went left he would go right, it seems to have served him well. I think it was more about how he was to achieve his goals rather than what they were.
_____________________ Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon

cortes
Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Total Topics: 29
Total Posts: 971

Posted 04/23/08 - 06:30 PM:	#50
Techeth wrote: I think its too easy to say that any one individual has the ability to control their environment to their choosing. For example I have a cousin that is not doing so well with his life, I know how to help him, but to do so would require me commiting a large part of my life to him. You seem to suggest its only laziness that prevents me from making that sacrifice. But if you believe people can master their own fate you at some point must decide how far you will go to change it for them, especially when that fate clashes with your view of your own. Suffice it to say that chaning someone else is an altogether different topic, and a far more difficult one. That is one reason why selfishness is a virtue. Sometimes you just have to write other people off. The question at hand is whether you ought to write yourself off. Techeth wrote: I agree we can blame our enivornments for what we are when we are slaves to them but we can not blame them for why we are what we are. Sometimes the summit of the mountain can be out of sight, I can understand when people give in to fate, as long as they take responsibility for it, I don't begrudge them the choice they make. It's not about blame. It's about seeking opportunity. If you don't seek you won't find.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

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