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linguistic Metaphor
WANDERER
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Posted 08/06/03 - 12:00 PM:
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#1
Speaking with the personal experience of a man that has lived both in North America and Europe and as a person that has a working understanding of three languages, I have noticed certain peculiarities in the usage of language by peoples from different cultures, even when often speaking the same language.
I recall once receiving a reply to one of my posts, in which I made the metaphorical or poetic assumption that the Universe denies us its secrets, from an individual that sarcastically challenged me by wondering how the Universe denies us anything.
“Does the universe have a consciousness?” Retorted my accuser
More recently I was asked to explain what I meant by “subjective interpretations” by someone who either didn’t comprehend or thought he had caught me in a linguistic blunder, reminiscent of the “Letter from Yale” post [which I enjoyed thoroughly] and he, wanting to “put me in my place” due to my “pompous” attitude, according to him, challenged me to explain what I meant by “subjective interpretations”.
I’m also frequently dismayed to be accused of rhetoric by people that find my usage of words in a poetic or allegoric fashion, as a sign of guile, pretentiousness or dishonesty.
Putting aside the motivations or the honesty of these challenges I find a distinct difference in how language is utilized by peoples from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds.
In Greek, French, Italian, for instance, language is used poetically, where metaphors, similes, allegories and symbolisms of all kinds are drafted [oops another metaphor] into the service of free expression.
In Anglo-Saxon tradition, language takes on a more stringent, particular character where precision is more appreciated than artfulness, language is stripped from all its color and the bare essentials are only demanded.
In North-American cultures, even though in most cases an individual is forced to learn and understand a single method of verbal communication {most often English}, I am always faced with a total lack of comprehension or linguistic flexibility.
Here, due to British influences I guess or the effects of Postman’s conclusions in “Entertaining ourselves to Death”, language is used more like a shallow mathematical construct, adhering to strict rules and formulas, where any divergence from the rule is looked down upon and taken as a sign of verbal retardation or, at best, pompousness.
The unimaginative, bland usage of the written or spoken word leads, in my view, to inflexibility in comprehension, where the literal interpretation of words is only understood and concepts are limited by the inefficiencies of verbal communication.
Through the usage of everyday language like an art-form in itself and not just the raw material restricted for more acceptable artful pursuits such as poetry or literature, inevitably leads to the expression of ideas using more than just words {images, feelings} that stimulate the imagination and results in a mind, with more creative options of self-expression and a better grasp of nuance and verbal detail.

In ancient Greece rhetoric was taught by the special few to those possessing the funds to pay the exuberant amounts required to be instructed in the art of verbal persuasion.
Many philosophers were themselves students of rhetoric and linguistic expression.
Today the term “rhetoric”, like “cynic”, “liberal” and others, has taken a negative definition meaning, empty words devoid of significance.

Knowing how language expands or limits conceptual understanding and the disdain many show towards artistic expression that requires effort, not only from the one doing the expressing but also from the one interpreting the expression, what does the unimaginative utilization of language, the lack of metaphorical technique and the restricted vocabulary of many in the west say about us and our culture in general?
In the “Letter from Yale” thread we were faced with students that mistakenly assumed that just by placing long, rarely used terms in successive order with no cohesion, purpose or conceptual unity is enough to appear knowledgeable.
What does it say about the education system and the learning of language in our society and where does this verbal retardation come from and lead to?
Should we take out the shovel and start digging western civilizations last resting place or is there still hope?
If there is hope could it possibly be found in the roots of western civilization itself? If not where?
Has “modern” western dislike, disrespect and weariness of intellectual thought-often culminating in caricatures of intelligent persons as being socially retarded, loners, existing in dark rooms reading books continuously and possessing no human interactions or intimate relationships- been the product of a Democratic equalitarian system and a Christian moral tradition wanting to flatten everyone into an amorphous blob of uniformity where any sign of difference or superiority is mocked, defamed and cut down to average size? {In this case also linguistic superiority}

Your thoughts below.
darkcrow
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Posted 08/06/03 - 03:23 PM:
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#2
I think what you are saying is that you prefer the language of literary art to the language of science and philosophy. The two are quite different. I have found it extremely frustrating, to speak, what I will call, two different languages.

"To the success of our hopeless task."
Weary Locomotive
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Posted 08/06/03 - 03:47 PM:
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#3
In parallel to this there exists the very interesting issue of translation; all too often there is a tendency to assume that "all translations are created equal" and that the English reader of, say, some obscure Russian or Japanese classic is getting the "full deal". Meanwhile, due to some of the things you've pointed out, a heapload of critically important nuances is thereby stripped from the work of art, turning it into a mere skeleton. Translated dangerously far from its natural habitat, almost no sign of the previously vigorous life remains among the whited bones now.

Nearly everyone living in a civilized society learns to read and write at one time or another. It's then presumed that one's education is for the most part complete.

It's often necessary to take these educated people and teach them to read and write all over again.

-WL
Rigor_Mortis
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Posted 08/06/03 - 03:51 PM:
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#4
Yes, I think that you are absolutely right in your observations.

As language has evolved, so has the its use. In the begining, as languages were still being formed, the tendency was to expand and enrich, and thus 'poetic use' was more or less the norm, as metaphors and other linguistic 'devices' were used to denote concepts or things that were still not formalized. Yet as time passed, the expansion of language kept slowing down, instead focusing on establishing itself. With the dawn of modern times, the expansion of conceptual representation seems to have come to a halt. Language has now taken the route of specialization, with jargon being included into the language 'core', and taking on a broader significant value.

All this is due to the surging role of science in the modern era. Epistemology now pushes for a formal use of language, a rigor of empirical origin, yet 'institutionalized'. Just reading through books on the theory of knowledge will confirm this, as the word metaphor itself seems to have now taken a pejorative connotation. Yet this 'trend' is not limited to philosophy, but it is the norm in everyday use. If anything, it is still philosophy that comes to question it. Still, things such as hermeneutics have little impact outside their implementing circles. And with the continuous shifting of language, it may indeed come to a point where a philosopher, a poet and an 'average Joe' might fail to understand each other.

The way I see it, this is a very bad thing. It is a given fact that reason and language are strongly tied, as indeed it was the growth of language that has given way to philosophy (and so many other things) in the first place. Yet if stagnancy of conceptual expansion becomes the norm, then the speaker becomes the prisoner of his own language - an intelectual barrier that is not even recognized due to the fact that it is... normal.
Unisonus
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Posted 08/06/03 - 04:08 PM:
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Wanderer,

I believe I understand your plight. There is a shrewd anti-intellectual movement about. Often I find that lingo I use regularly in sophisticated conversation is disdained by others. I'm sure they imagine that I am using some form of convoluted jargon- when in fact I am doing nothing more than speaking in a manner acceptable within the literate community. They mistake their ignorance for obfuscation and malevolency on my part- which is not the case at all.

"...take care that your style and diction run musically, pleasantly, and plainly, with clear, proper, and well-placed words, setting forth your purpose to the best of your power, and putting your ideas intelligibly, without confusion or obscurity."

- Miguel de Cervantes
WANDERER
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Posted 08/06/03 - 06:48 PM:
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#6
All very interesting responses from different perspectives coming at it from different angles.
I am also particularly interested in opinions about the overall decline of language usage in modern societies which, I believe, is directly linked to a modern reliance on visual methods of communication, overall technological advancements and popular distaste and ridicule for reading and intellectualism in general.
I believe that the unimaginative and inartistic usage of language today is due to multiple factors:
1} The effects of TV on mental focus and thinking in general.
Postman argued that the printing press lead to an alteration in thinking caused by the necessity to engage the imagination in order to comprehend the written or spoken word with all its nuances and that the TV has also altered the way generations, brought up with it, think and understand concepts or communicate them to others.
2} The effects of an equalitarian moral system through which any deviation from an average norm is either explained away using excuses, such as syndromes, disorders, psychological mumbo-jumbo and so on, when inferior to the average, or mocked and discouraged by using characterizations and accusations of arrogance, display or pompousness or by caricaturing the idea of an intellectual or capable mind as a being devoid of physicality, sexual virility or interest, social interactions and charisma, when superior to the average.
It appears that uniformity and false equality is promoted by excusing the ones that do not measure up or defame and discourage those that exceed making any divergence shameful and something to be insulted for.
3} The effects of generations of equalitarian breeding, which has created masses of ill-constituted individuals which are unable to think for themselves and so easily adopt any existing method and standard.
This genetic effect is primarily caused by the denial of sexual choice to women.
I’m sure it will be controversial to many of you.
4} The effects of a systematic promotion of stupidity which makes for the creation of more malleable and therefore more disciplined and governable populations.
This accomplished through religious dogma that inhibits doubt or skepticism of any kind, other than as to how particular holy scripts can be interpreted; through the allowance for the deterioration of public educational institutions through neglect [purposely in my opinion]; through the educational institutions themselves that, most often, teach what to think and not how to think and are now nothing more than producers of specialty workers and disseminators of cultural prejudices and national propagandas.
The disrespect for public education in the US is a case in point.

It is a popular opinion that in order to be “cool”, in our society, you must be ignorant by default or in constant imitation of your peers or in constant pursuit of physical goals with little or no interest in anything intellectual or abstract.

It is obvious that language is imperfect and a poor tool of communication in a universe of such complexity and ambiguity but nevertheless it’s the best tool we have.
Language is one of the things that separate us from other animals and when we let it decline or diminish we are reverting back to a more primitive existence where, in the end, we may just be grunting and pointing at each other as we think in pictures as we once did.

I can appreciate the problems of interpretation and the loss of meaning it entails but what is more fascinating is the usage of language, even when the same one, in completely different manners by individuals coming from different cultural backgrounds.
The near complete absence of imaginative creative language utilization in North America and the west altogether, exposes to me a near total absence of imagination and creativity in thinking; for if speech is not the externalization of internal phenomena then what is it?
Spaces
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Posted 08/07/03 - 05:57 PM:
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"...for if speech is not the externalization of internal phenomena then what is it?___WANDERER

Internal phenomena? Not even the most rarefied intellectual would be able to accurately and irreproachably delineate the features of such phenomena. Adeptness in a language system can certainly make for some interesting perceptions on the issue but in many ways it is analogous to a different gear in the clockwork and for it to be ascribing this, that or the other to the differing gears is frequently futile since it's all keeping the same "time". Language already has a rigid requirement and that is to explain to the best degree whatever is under consideration to as many adherents of that language as possible. Specializations of it will be accorded importance from different platforms relative to their efficacy in a situation. A minor example of this in the case of two doctors discussing a patient's condition and chances while said patient is listening to them. The patient may not understand any of the terms being used by the doctors but has to accept that what is being discussed is in his best interest and if the outcome be a good one then that'll seal the specialization as a necessity. Seals of approval are harder to come by when the specializations are removed from substantial applicability. Dependency, by the intelligent upon the not-so-intelligent, therefore is the uninvited given in this situation since isolation is a fleeting pleasure by those so intellectually inclined. If it were not for this dependency then I seriously doubt that you would be citing the displeasing effects that these conditions have wrought to your assessments.

The "...inflexibility in comprehension.." which you note is in actuality secondary to the perceived inflexibility and consequently inability of the ideas to have relevance in whichever platform they should be proposed. Once again, the patient may find the medical jargon incomprehensible but it does have relevance, an immediacy to the situation. Unless the layman is furiously entrenched in a rejection of anything poly-syllabic they will not be adverse to the imaginative twist of the phrase provided there is something there which upon closer inspection proves relevant. Of course, the deciding regulator of that relevance is going to be the environment in which the individual finds himself at any given moment and if it be one comprised of moments reiterated to the point of necessary routine then the ante is up on how much genuine relief there will be forthcoming from complex language. Even if it be a simple television sitcom, a stand-up comic or a martial arts kickfest there has to be something there to engage some aspect of the mind, something that says that the activity is worthwhile. For the fancier of Critical Theory a foot to the face may not be very rewarding in terms of intellectual pondering but if they're "flexible" enough they could find connections that even the most recalcitrant chop-socky aficionado would find intriguing. For many it's not a matter that it's too smart, it's a matter of if it's smart enough to make sense to everyone. Faced with this what defense can the intellectual have when supposedly the conjectures and their language are superior? Apparently not so superior when they can only survive in a different part of "town".

If I get into a taxi and the cabbie's conversation starter is, "how about them Yankees?", I'm not going to reply with, "Oh, that's nothing, how about that Frankfurt School?". Common sense demands better and even more of a demand is that I shouldn't jump to conclusions just because the cabrdriver doesn't know what I'm referring to. What is of importance at that moment and which precedes any intellectual and philosophical considerations is that of services rendered in exchange for remuneration. Though it may be taken for granted that it is the process which is in effect it is also that which regulates much when it comes to the priorities of both parties. There is where you'll find the modern "western civilization" of it. There is where you'll find the reason why one is driving the cab and the other one is a passenger. It's a matter of commerce and in commerce there are those that win and those that are having a hell of a time trying not to fall. It would take quite the intellectual/philosophical argument to dislodge the pervasiveness of such. Tradesmen and merchants stormed the gates a long time ago and it would seem that the intellectuals with all their brightness weren't able to accomplish much in terms of social guidance to something other than economic worship. Whose fault is that? One said to think about it, the other said to put in a few hours and just go out and buy the damn thing and stop banging your head around. Sure, most know by now that those few hours are now more than a few years, if ever, but the system has been in place for a long time and if you change something nowadays you have to be aware of how it changes everything in the chain of existence. Do you think that some of those tradesmen and merchants were averse to a little intellectualizing of their own? I'm sure that initially there may have been glimmerings of enhancing society but with bigger numbers the enhancement shifted into control with the prominent theorists being the bookkeepers. Just remember that for a whole lot of "Bobs" there is a "Robert the Third" out there whose better position isn't making matters any better. Which one should be castigated?

Personally, I don't worry too much if the city I'm in is in Amorphous Blob County, I just proceed the best I can and know when and where certain propositions will be effective. Neither should I be wasting my time wondering if I'm coming across as a caricature or a loner; either I'm comfortable with it or find another gig. If there are others with whom I can discuss these issues with whether in the immediate environment or in these types of forums then so much the better. But the numbers in either area are nothing compared to what is out there globally and the types of situations and conditions that are prevalent. For better or for worse there is a reality that proceeds at its own pace, which is constituted of innumerable viewpoints which often clash and with consequences that intellectualizing and commerce are often ill-equipped to handle. Solutions more often than not come from one-on-ones and with such a scenario there is little time for metaphors. When the sky is really falling one doesn't need metaphors.

As for language, it would be "functional use" that was the initial norm. This is not to say that a measure of the poetic wasn't somehow a subtext but the demands survival-wise from then were certainly different than those of the present and abstractions of quite a different character. What better blend of these two than cave paintings depicting food sources on the run and spear-brandishing from another part of town? Perhaps at night around the campfire or odd moments throughout the day there may have been reveries of the like and the same could be said for the modern-day individual. Our gauging of conceptual expansion may have come to a halt but I can hardly give credence to that on a universal scale. Even if you were to be generous and jack the percentage of brain usage to 25% it still wouldn't give one any reason to claim that cognition on that scale has down-shifted due to mere specialization. Specialization is abstraction but abstraction is a puppy that doesn't like leashes and so dependent on the direction your particular, experiential referent is travelling it can also be a concentration, expansion, revelation and yes, even an obliteration.

Reason and language are strongly tied? Hmm, I think I'll let someone else handle that one. Personally, I think it's a bit more slippery. Finally, may the "shrewd anti-intellectual movement" enjoy all the regularity it can get because it is nothing more than politicization yet again dressing up as something else. It's like someone with major body twitching trying on a different costume every Halloween thinking no one will know: "Why I would have never guessed it was you in that Foghorn Leghorn outfit. Anyway, glad you could make it to the party."
And I'd be sincere about it.



Spaces
Carol Frances
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Posted 08/07/03 - 06:40 PM:
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#8
Wanderer - I think that we can handle linguistic experimentation and creative adventure within the constructs of the English vocabulary. You show great dismay for all this world (this world, this Western world) that we live in and I do agree with you on many a point, but, I feel that you should not spend so much energy on pointing to the obvious holes and tatters and ruin and rather, rise above it all, if you wish, and write as you would like to write. If you write from what you know and what you feel, then, well, it will find its own way.

One starts to hate their own mother, their own family and points to another family that seems to be better - the family with the deaf daughter and the blind son and the autistic piano genuis - they communicate so well and so differently and why can't we be like them? Metaphor is alive and well and dying in Las Vegas. There is colour and nuance in this language. There is colour and nuance in every language. Decide how you want to communicate and use the best of the rest.

Yes, the Western world is shit. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could all return to the Ancient Greek way of life in live in a timocracy - which, by the the way, was a blip of existence, just like this blip/burp of existence in which we live and breathe or - opps, it's gone.....again.

There is room for life in this language. I think that the "Letter from Yale" thread (I don't know, were you bemoaning the ineffectual usage, the lack of clarity?) was meant to discuss the (non)apparent
obsfucation of the language in an attempt to distract from lack of meaning. Where there is meaning, there is meaning....and we can consult dictionaries or our imaginations in the gaps...

You are starting to really grow on me. I do love your passion. But...your energy seems too consumed with the obvious stupidity of the outward appearance of this society - know that we all, here, at least, go deeper. And we know, that language is all metaphor. And so is this life.
Carol Frances
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Posted 08/07/03 - 06:47 PM:
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#9
And so is this life....

(Cue violins, please)
Sharif
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Posted 08/07/03 - 07:04 PM:
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#10
WANDERER wrote:
Speaking with the personal experience of a man that has lived both in North America and Europe and as a person that has a working understanding of three languages, I have noticed certain peculiarities in the usage of language by peoples from different cultures, even when often speaking the same language.
I recall once receiving a reply to one of my posts, in which I made the metaphorical or poetic assumption that the Universe denies us its secrets, from an individual that sarcastically challenged me by wondering how the Universe denies us anything.
“Does the universe have a consciousness?” Retorted my accuser
More recently I was asked to explain what I meant by “subjective interpretations” by someone who either didn’t comprehend or thought he had caught me in a linguistic blunder, reminiscent of the “Letter from Yale” post [which I enjoyed thoroughly] and he, wanting to “put me in my place” due to my “pompous” attitude, according to him, challenged me to explain what I meant by “subjective interpretations”.
I’m also frequently dismayed to be accused of rhetoric by people that find my usage of words in a poetic or allegoric fashion, as a sign of guile, pretentiousness or dishonesty.
Putting aside the motivations or the honesty of these challenges I find a distinct difference in how language is utilized by peoples from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds.
In Greek, French, Italian, for instance, language is used poetically, where metaphors, similes, allegories and symbolisms of all kinds are drafted [oops another metaphor] into the service of free expression.
In Anglo-Saxon tradition, language takes on a more stringent, particular character where precision is more appreciated than artfulness, language is stripped from all its color and the bare essentials are only demanded.
In North-American cultures, even though in most cases an individual is forced to learn and understand a single method of verbal communication {most often English}, I am always faced with a total lack of comprehension or linguistic flexibility.
Here, due to British influences I guess or the effects of Postman’s conclusions in “Entertaining ourselves to Death”, language is used more like a shallow mathematical construct, adhering to strict rules and formulas, where any divergence from the rule is looked down upon and taken as a sign of verbal retardation or, at best, pompousness.
The unimaginative, bland usage of the written or spoken word leads, in my view, to inflexibility in comprehension, where the literal interpretation of words is only understood and concepts are limited by the inefficiencies of verbal communication.
Through the usage of everyday language like an art-form in itself and not just the raw material restricted for more acceptable artful pursuits such as poetry or literature, inevitably leads to the expression of ideas using more than just words {images, feelings} that stimulate the imagination and results in a mind, with more creative options of self-expression and a better grasp of nuance and verbal detail.

In ancient Greece rhetoric was taught by the special few to those possessing the funds to pay the exuberant amounts required to be instructed in the art of verbal persuasion.
Many philosophers were themselves students of rhetoric and linguistic expression.
Today the term “rhetoric”, like “cynic”, “liberal” and others, has taken a negative definition meaning, empty words devoid of significance.

Knowing how language expands or limits conceptual understanding and the disdain many show towards artistic expression that requires effort, not only from the one doing the expressing but also from the one interpreting the expression, what does the unimaginative utilization of language, the lack of metaphorical technique and the restricted vocabulary of many in the west say about us and our culture in general?
In the “Letter from Yale” thread we were faced with students that mistakenly assumed that just by placing long, rarely used terms in successive order with no cohesion, purpose or conceptual unity is enough to appear knowledgeable.
What does it say about the education system and the learning of language in our society and where does this verbal retardation come from and lead to?
Should we take out the shovel and start digging western civilizations last resting place or is there still hope?
If there is hope could it possibly be found in the roots of western civilization itself? If not where?
Has “modern” western dislike, disrespect and weariness of intellectual thought-often culminating in caricatures of intelligent persons as being socially retarded, loners, existing in dark rooms reading books continuously and possessing no human interactions or intimate relationships- been the product of a Democratic equalitarian system and a Christian moral tradition wanting to flatten everyone into an amorphous blob of uniformity where any sign of difference or superiority is mocked, defamed and cut down to average size? {In this case also linguistic superiority}

Your thoughts below.



Your best essay so far and an enjoyable read, though I don't have much of substance to add.

darkcrow wrote:

I think what you are saying is that you prefer the language of literary art to the language of science and philosophy. The two are quite different.


That's a very good point, though I think that it's important that difference exists.
WANDERER
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Posted 08/07/03 - 07:28 PM:
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#11
To Spaces
Once again an interesting response from you; although the small font is becoming a little annoying.

Internal phenomena? Not even the most rarefied intellectual would be able to accurately and irreproachably delineate the features of such phenomena.

How about perceived phenomena and experiential constructs whose perspective reality cannot be experienced directly by the other?
Or
How about confrontational and/or cooperating natural forces that participate in the creation of an apparent material manifestation of multiplicity as a singular event?

“Dependency, by the intelligent upon the not-so-intelligent, therefore is the uninvited given in this situation since isolation is a fleeting pleasure by those so intellectually inclined. If it were not for this dependency then I seriously doubt that you would be citing the displeasing effects that these conditions have wrought to your assessments”

Here lies the tragedy of my existence.

Reason and language are strongly tied? Hmm, I think I'll let someone else handle that one. Personally, I think it's a bit more slippery. Finally, may the "shrewd anti-intellectual movement" enjoy all the regularity it can get because it is nothing more than politicization yet again dressing up as something else. It's like someone with major body twitching trying on a different costume every Halloween thinking no one will know: "Why I would have never guessed it was you in that Foghorn Leghorn outfit. Anyway, glad you could make it to the party."
And I'd be sincere about it.


I said creativity and imagination are displayed through language.
I never mentioned reason.

As for the rest I can only say that my concerns are for the human kind more than my own ephemeral existence, which will end in 40-60 years, if I’m lucky.
I have spent my entire life hiding my real thoughts and abilities and adjusting my language to the circumstances as to not appear condescending, different or threatening. {As many of you have witnessed I often fail miserably}
I can indulge in conversations about sports, cars and pussy when opportunity arises and many even think that I’m quick with the one-liners and the jokes.
It is, however, a little sad when one participates in an environment where because of the subjects involved, a more flexible or able audience is expected but denied.
I think of boards like this as places where distances can be bridged and honest open expression of opinions can be exposed no matter how insulting, hateful or annoying they may be.
Let us see the vileness and darkness of the human soul so as to better comprehend ourselves and gain control over the forces that guide and influence us.

To Carol Francis
Wanderer - I think that we can handle linguistic experimentation and creative adventure within the constructs of the English vocabulary. You show great dismay for all this world (this world, this Western world) that we live in and I do agree with you on many a point, but, I feel that you should not spend so much energy on pointing to the obvious holes and tatters and ruin and rather, rise above it all, if you wish, and write as you would like to write. If you write from what you know and what you feel, then, well, it will find its own way.

It is not only for my self-interest that I speak out for, it is for the unborn, and yet uncreated future minds.
My dismay is not for my own circumstances, for I have come to terms with them and adapted accordingly to the best of my ability, but for the destruction of all human potential and future possibility.

You are starting to really grow on me. I do love your passion. But...your energy seems too consumed with the obvious stupidity of the outward appearance of this society - know that we all, here, at least, go deeper. And we know, that language is all metaphor. And so is this life.

That’s me, lousy at first impressions but a strong finisher and someone that grows on people like a fungus.
I warn you, my spirit is contagious.
As for the “all here go deeper” remark I can only say that I doubt the “all” part but hope that , at least, some go deeper.
I am an elitist after all.

To Sharif
My thanks.
Spaces
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Posted 08/08/03 - 07:05 AM:
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#12
The use of the smaller font is simply to economize on the area used and makes for less scrolling in the longer posts.

Correct, that (re reason) was in response to a statement by 'Rigor_Mortis'.

"... perceived phenomena and experiential constructs whose perspective reality cannot be experienced directly by the other?"

"...confrontational and/or cooperating natural forces that participate in the creation of an apparent material manifestation of multiplicity as a singular event?"___WANDERER


The key here is "perceived" and there is a difference between reality and "perspective reality". Delineations with the former ( remembering that it is "speech" which you cited in particular---other forms will vary) can at best solicit a transient platform of engagement from/with the "other". First, the other will assess the reality delineation that you present to them regardless if you even said a word. Sounds impersonal but call it the sizing up of the experiential object, in this case, you. Once their value system establishes whatever they're comfortable with then they examine the values which you present. It is rare that the latter (presented values) will wholly eclipse the former since for the perceiver that suggests a reappraisal of their own relationship vis-a-vis the object. Few things are tougher than admitting that one's initial ingress to the object is faulty; it makes for unpleasant psychological assessments by the other which do anything but further specific examination of whatever issue is in question. In short, one's perspective reality would be the main inquiry rather than assessments of the object by "others".

Any relational constructs that leave themselves so open and tenuous in exchanges do not have much in the way of validating interpretations of Reality with a capital R. Add to this that "speech" is already a representational form and the claim comes off as wishful thinking; or desperation in case the "other" happened to wake up on the wrong side of the object that morning.

As for the second quote, I'm reading the embodiment of pluralism but I would prefer an elucidation on your take of "natural forces", maybe a concrete example of the polarity (confront/cooperate) involved before addressing this further; re the delineation of internal phenomena the, "...participate in creation..", is somewhat problematic especially when divisions are to be regarded as "unified".



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Posted 08/08/03 - 07:47 AM:
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#13
The use of the smaller font is simply to economize on the area used and makes for less scrolling in the longer posts.

I read this far---no further--in spite of the economy I just don't read your posts, I do get _something_ out of them, but only through others response. To my loss I am sure, but I am looking at this stupid screen hours each day and the small script is just too tiring on my eyes.

"To the success of our hopeless task."
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Posted 08/08/03 - 09:09 AM:
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darkcrow

If necessary, simply go to the "view" drop-down on the browser toolbar and choose larger lettering. I use IE, I don't know how it's configured in Netscape.


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Posted 08/08/03 - 10:06 AM:
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#15
Thanks, seems I learn something everyday

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Posted 08/08/03 - 04:56 PM:
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#16
Forces of nature
1] Gravity
2] Electromagnetism
3] Strong
4] Weak

Or we can use Schopenhauer’s list: fluidity, rigidity, elasticity, electricity, magnetism, chemical properties and so on.
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Posted 08/08/03 - 07:52 PM:
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#17
Ahh...the standards.

1 & 2? Labeled and observed yet indirectly, by way of mediums. Being that we're still in reference to inner phenomena (IP) then the situation becomes even more complicated in that IP can easily do without the referents of 1 & 2 if we're restricting ourselves to the purely cognitive. Now, if we were to view this from the proposition of extended cognition, then 1 & 2 does open up some intriguing possibilities such as to what extent is cognition affected by gravity since all that is "mind" would be interacting with it. Need I mention what a back-door boost this would give to astrology and other propositions?

3 & 4? Well, you know that for many those will fall into the category of throw-away terms. The severest reproach would be from those disciplines where adjectives need not apply if the position is one whose objective is establishing controls.

Alas, Schopenhauer's list is based on "form" transitions also largely dependent on mediums. Nothing wrong with that but again with respect to IP the aspect of correspondence with the external is not the premium consideration. As an aside, a good example of that is the "this world is an illusion" slogan used by many a persuasion whether it's aligned with Idealism or not.

One last question, out of curiosity: Have you personally assessed internal phenomena to the point where you trust its exports more than any other source even if a terminus of form were imminent?

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Posted 08/09/03 - 05:42 AM:
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#18
Can’t say if they’re “standards” or just recent labels used to describe a process but since I have no other labels and no personal means to create my own through direct observation, I take the assessments of others and analyze them using my own experiences to either acknowledge their possibility according to degree and with huge doses of scepticism to keep me grounded.
I’m not saying, so much that the forces affect cognition, for they do that also, but that cognition is the product of natural forces. Gravity interacting with the rest, plus some that we may not know yet, creates the circumstances through which life and later cognition arises.
I read this book called “Lucifer’s Legacy” by Frank Close that describes how we, and the universe, are a product of asymmetry and an absence of equilibrium that displays itself not only in mundane things such as our right-handedness and the internal organs being displaced in an asymmetrical manner on one side of the body but more so on a molecular and quantum level where some theoretical phenomena such as bosons display a preference for a unidirectional spin. Furthermore the lack of anti-matter in a universe that should have equal doses of it in relation to matter {and would lead to its own annihilation}, either signifies a regional dominance of matter or anti-matter in spatial pockets or an asymmetry that promotes one and eliminates the other on a subatomic level.

What the “Strong” and “Weak” forces signify to me is that what once was one now, through the cooling down of the universe, is breaking apart into spheres of influence that creates a situation where once cooperating unified forces may now contradict and conflict with each other and make life possible.
It is this conflict that is called the “Will” by Schopenhauer, “The Will to Power” by Nietzsche and life’s intrinsic suffering and turmoil by all but the very naïve.

I really don’t see the relation to astrology. It bases its assumptions on effects of gravitational fields over huge distances which when compared to other bodies in space would be a negligible one. Gravity is, remember, a very weak force when compared to electromagnetism for instance.
Whoever believes a gravitational field a thousand light-years away has a more profound affect on Earthling characteristics than a star around which we revolve, should be shot.
But my deductions are more on how cognition comes about not as to how it is affected once it has come about. We would be remise if we did not acknowledge that gravity, in combination with others, enables the coalition of phenomena that makes matter and mind possible.
I believe here what is necessary is a definition of cognition.
For me cognition is nothing more than chemical reactions within a brain [dictated by natural forces] that enables the survival, of said brain, over a period of time. To live is to need and to need is to want to desire, to hope, to imagine strategies and to seek control over environments and all this is done by one thought following another in a succession, beginning who knows when in the uterus, at such a fast rate as to appear as a singular event we call consciousness.
Consciousness is a series of multiple wants and needs coupled with the influences of sensual perceptions emerging in rapid succession: I am hungry, I need to go to work, I want sex, I itch, my leg hurts, there’s a man there, there’s a cloud over me and so on.

You ask:
“One last question, out of curiosity: Have you personally assessed internal phenomena to the point where you trust its exports more than any other source even if a terminus of form were imminent?”

What other source?
I can’t answer this question unless I’m given an alternative.
I, like all living beings, I presume, only knows internal phenomena.
Even sensual interpretations of supposed external phenomena are internal interpretations.
When we see we see what the mind interprets through the sensual input.
Being a human being I can only live according to my limits. This is what I have to go on, so relying on some hypothetical in the hopes that I will somehow go beyond my nature, on a personal level, is foolish.
The best I can do is stretch my limits reach for them in the hopes that some future being will surpass me.
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Posted 08/11/03 - 09:23 AM:
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#19
First, regarding "other sources", the very concept of source is always in fluctuation. That one should elect a particular aspect of it as more "established", perhaps more amenable to being validated, means little more than an appropriation according to one's ability in the comprehension of experiential sustenance and more importantly, of origins.

You say that you can't answer the question unless you're given an alternative but If you note that you can only live to "human limits" and that going beyond your nature is foolish if there is a reliance on hypotheticals, then I think you have answered your question. But I can't agree here, especially in your case where in many of your postings do you not only urge a transcendence on the part of the individual but also rebuff to those that wallow in the mediocrity which you despise. In those you passionately imply the alternative regardless that it can be grouped within the body of a plurality of alternatives among those being elements non-internal. To say that your best is stretching the limits in the hope of some future being surpassing you almost qualifies as an altruistic subtext of sorts and a reliance which while not overt certainly indicates a foolishness for some quarters; especially, of all places, with those of an authentically elitist platform. In no way do I bring this up as a psychological analysis of your position, I note it because it is an example of the constant shifting that occurs for the protagonist when dealing with his or her sources and of the errors thereof due to the ambiguity of conceptual origins which every single one us must contend with.

Externally, huge doses of skepticism keep you anchored in a systematic program of doubt and while this certainly fits the bill as a modern cautionary tale one can't help but get bored with it especially when for some it seems to have extended itself into minutiae like whether to buy one-ply or two-ply sanitary tissue. There is always the promise on their part that they will be quiet when ample evidence is presented but in all honesty any evidence perceived by the human is local and fractious to begin with, otherwise you and I would be languidly savoring personalized utopias.

If you consider gravity as a circumstance through which life and cognition arises then you are giving credence to extended cognition, the "where is the mind" scenario. Needless to say, this thoroughly mitigates the inclusion of "fusillade" as a daily horoscope item to be pondered over the morning coffee. This is made even more so if you bring up elements like molecular and quantum levels, bosons, matter, anti-matter since in many regards it's just a matter of "seeing" in the other direction which I may add lends itself to more local controls and which may be part of the reason for their "acceptance". But in the middle of all of this excavation there appears a flashing, little gem:

"...signifies a regional dominance of matter..."

Now, I don't know if that is yours or from Close's book but it is a loaded one with enough levels to satisfy just about most of the disciplines extant. One of them is how it alludes to what can be termed an experiential politic, a politic which compels the individual to regard his or her relationship with the cosmos as an advocacy of sorts. In this premise we find those core issues, whether they be recognized or not, that serve as the raison d'etre for habituation with existence. May I humbly suggest that if the 'regional' statement is yours that you run with it as an essay unto itself for it is saturated with possibilities.

Finally, with consciousness all you have to do is substitute "dream" for it and follow it with the litany of effects you provide and it would easily apply likewise. Thus, it is a situation of such flexibility that it will continue to defy demarcations especially when the attempt is made with "regional" vehicles such as representational language in the context of a vastly elusive cosmological politic.



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Posted 08/12/03 - 08:24 AM:
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“ First, regarding "other sources", the very concept of source is always in fluctuation. That one should elect a particular aspect of it as more "established", perhaps more amenable to being validated, means little more than an appropriation according to one's ability in the comprehension of experiential sustenance and more importantly, of origins.”

Here you are insinuating alternate ‘sources’ but mention none.
More ‘established’ in comparison to what?

”You say that you can't answer the question unless you're given an alternative but If you note that you can only live to "human limits" and that going beyond your nature is foolish if there is a reliance on hypotheticals, then I think you have answered your question. But I can't agree here, especially in your case where in many of your postings do you not only urge a transcendence on the part of the individual but also rebuff to those that wallow in the mediocrity which you despise. In those you passionately imply the alternative regardless that it can be grouped within the body of a plurality of alternatives among those being elements non-internal.”

I am saying that there is no alternative to ‘subjective thought’.
I am indifferent to the mediocre and only despise them when they become dangerous to the nurturing and ascendance of greatness.
Unfortunately or fortunately we live in a cultural environment dominated by an ethos that glorifies and shields mediocrity for the purposes of stability and at the expense of all else.
I didn’t say that it is foolish to surpass ‘human limits’ nor that one should surrender to them. I said that when considering ‘hypothetical concepts’ we should always keep our imperfections in mind and acknowledge the fact that there will be limits that we will not personally surpass given our mortality.
I am an advocate of living life on the edge of possibility. In reaching ones limits one gains twofold: 1] A life lived fully and completely by taking advantage of every potential 2] A self understood by realizing the extent of its breadth and by understanding the world and its plurality through the spectrum of your perceived individuality and its relation to the whole.

“To say that your best is stretching the limits in the hope of some future being surpassing you almost qualifies as an altruistic subtext of sorts and a reliance which while not overt certainly indicates a foolishness for some quarters; especially, of all places, with those of an authentically elitist platform.”

The ‘altruistic’ subtext you perceive may be a remnant of a youthful, romantic and naive hopefulness but it is, most likely, an expression of recognition on the ephemeral nature of my own mortal existence.
I am mostly concerned about my environment and circumstances but if, as an added benefit, some future or present being can build upon my struggles and benefit from them, then it is pleasing, in an egotistical way, even if irrelevant to my interests.
My ‘eliticism’ is in complete accordance with my views and is the product of a bitter disillusionment with the quality of mind exhibited by the majority and the realization that weakness should be its own punishment and not the source for compassion and sheltering.
I, like many others, came to terms with the fact that one cannot do away with pain, injustice, inequality and suffering because they are woven into the very fabric of existence and in attempting to do so the health of the whole is jeopardized.

“ In no way do I bring this up as a psychological analysis of your position, I note it because it is an example of the constant shifting that occurs for the protagonist when dealing with his or her sources and of the errors thereof due to the ambiguity of conceptual origins which every single one us must contend with.”

Of course I recognize the ‘shifting’ of perspectives and the subtle differences in opinion that every human being exhibits on any given day. The effects of mood and psychological states are well known to me and something as mundane as weather circumstances can affect ones opinions in subtle ways.
But I believe I remain constant on the basic premises of my views and any ambiguity or slight alteration may just be due to your or any third persons, lack of full-knowledge on their entirety or simply errors caused by the limitations of language and the constraints of trying not to become verbose and tiresome.
Hopefully my answers to your questions can make my positions clearer.

”Externally, huge doses of skepticism keep you anchored in a systematic program of doubt and while this certainly fits the bill as a modern cautionary tale one can't help but get bored with it especially when for some it seems to have extended itself into minutiae like whether to buy one-ply or two-ply sanitary tissue.”

My greatest problem with skepticism is that it eradicates passion from debate and life in general and equates all opinions as relevant and respectable.
My skepticism is shaded by a hovering self-realization that forces me to stand up for my positions, as if they were absolute, while hiding an underlying doubt and questioning.
But even if there are no absolute ‘truths’ then there certainly are superior and inferior ones and this the source of my passion and interest in debate.

“ If you consider gravity as a circumstance through which life and cognition arises then you are giving credence to extended cognition, the "where is the mind" scenario. Needless to say, this thoroughly mitigates the inclusion of "fusillade" as a daily horoscope item to be pondered over the morning coffee. This is made even more so if you bring up elements like molecular and quantum levels, bosons, matter, anti-matter since in many regards it's just a matter of "seeing" in the other direction which I may add lends itself to more local controls and which may be part of the reason for their "acceptance". But in the middle of all of this excavation there appears a flashing, little gem:

"...signifies a regional dominance of matter..."

Now, I don't know if that is yours or from Close's book but it is a loaded one with enough levels to satisfy just about most of the disciplines extant. One of them is how it alludes to what can be termed an experiential politic, a politic which compels the individual to regard his or her relationship with the cosmos as an advocacy of sorts. In this premise we find those core issues, whether they be recognized or not, that serve as the raison d'etre for habituation with existence. May I humbly suggest that if the 'regional' statement is yours that you run with it as an essay unto itself for it is saturated with possibilities.”


I confess that only a physicist can be the product of this deduction.
I haven’t fully explored the possibilities of the said statement but I do intrinsically sense them.
Why do you not attempt an elucidation yourself and save me the time and effort?
I believe Close metaphorically explained it as the phenomena of alignment as is found in magnets, for instance, where as cooling [loss of energy] occurs an alignment or imitation of regional circumstances ensues creating an asymmetrical domination.
Another symbolic example he used was the one of the circular dinner table:
Assume that you and another 9 people are equidistantly seated around a circular table with similar utensils and implements. The question arises which napkin is your own, the one on the right or the one on the left? [Excluding modern cultural rules of etiquette]
Once the first person makes the decision then all the rest must align accordingly in order to posses a napkin at all. So everyone around the table will choose, as a result, the napkin on the side the first one chose.
Now let us assume that half way around the table one diner went against the trend and chose the napkin on the other side. This would create regional areas of ‘napkin-use’ domination. There would be a portion of the table where left-sided napkin users would reside and a region where right-sided napkin users would reside with neutral areas between them where the diner would either have two napkins or no napkin at all.

Now take this example in relation to matter, anti-matter and boson spins and you have a theory that explains the asymmetrical, disequilibrium of our own universe and explains the existence of imbalance and the suffering it creates.
Life is itself the product of an absence of symmetry whose circumstances are the product of a chance occurrence brought about by the cooling down tendency that forces a “phase change” just as when water is frozen.
But all this asymmetry, according to Close, hides an underlying symmetry that becomes hidden due to this phase change.
So the forces of nature-Strong, Weak, Electromagnetic and Gravity- are manifestations of a single force that has been ruptured because of the phase change caused by the cooling down process.
Just as a piece of magnet will loose its magnetic polarization when heated- when energy is added- and become more uniform, so is the universe brought to symmetry through the addition of energy [if this were possible] and polarized through the loss of it.
I’m assuming that since the Laws of Thermodynamics exclude the possibility of energy loss from a system [theoretically] that the cooling down is due to regional differences where one region loses energy and another gains it.


”Finally, with consciousness all you have to do is substitute "dream" for it and follow it with the litany of effects you provide and it would easily apply likewise. Thus, it is a situation of such flexibility that it will continue to defy demarcations especially when the attempt is made with "regional" vehicles such as representational language in the context of a vastly elusive cosmological politic. “

These were the “human limitations” I spoke of.
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