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life and death

Sabine
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Posted 04/28/04 - 03:29 PM:	#1
If we assume that our consciousness derives/emerges from the special configuration of the matter that makes us up, can we deny that we'll ever become 'the consciousness' again? I'm thinking that the response would be 'no, we can't become the consciousness again because death means becoming nothing and once you are nothing there's no coming back!' But how did I become something in the first place then?

rabeldin
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Posted 04/28/04 - 05:06 PM:	#2
We know of one way that humans come into existence. We know of many ways they can drop out, but "becoming nothing" isn't a very good description of any of them. When the mechanism ceases to function its all over.
Leave no assumption unquestioned.

Sabine
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Posted 04/28/04 - 05:17 PM:	#3
rabeldin wrote: We know of one way that humans come into existence. We know of many ways they can drop out, but "becoming nothing" isn't a very good description of any of them. When the mechanism ceases to function its all over. so, the mechanism ceasing to function as a human being does not mean 'its all over' for the consciousness, does it? how do you figure? actually, i think death as the onset of nothingness is a particularly good description. it's not essentially different from your version. sure, mine has a certain absurd ring to it, perhaps because it is an absurd idea. its not coherent to think that the functioning mechanism gives rise to a subjective consciousness. The reason i think 'becoming nothing' makes sense is because we are something over and above a functioning mechanism--our consciousness. so when the mechanism stops functioning, that something over and above, becomes nothing.

The Preacher
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Posted 04/28/04 - 05:23 PM:	#4
Alright, I'm not gonna try and be smart, and just ask everyone a question that might not make sense takes reputation hat off Everyone posting on this board has a brain. Everyone also has a body of some sort which is, primarily, like a huge battery for the greatest computer on Earth. But the thing that has always puzzled me, since I could talk is this...Why, if you have a brain that is, for all intents and purposes identical to mine (and must be), and I have a brain, why is it, that all sight, sound, touch, taste, smell is relative to THIS brain? Why not your brain? What is embedded in my head that will be there for 60 odd years that is not in your head? Here's the other half of the question; if all I am is a collection of nerve interactions. That is to say, the only thing by which I can be identified is my thoughts (and if those thoughts stand in some causal or causal-like relationship to action, then these actions also), my thoughts are not my brain. So, could the "Jimmy Stewart program" be run on ANY brain? puts reputation hat back on Now, I know these are the sort of questions analytic philosophers have a field day with, but I'd like perspectives on this issue, and if anyone A) considers it a genuine question and B) can give any kind of coherant answer.
What is truth? a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, anthropomorphisms, in short, a sum of human relations which were poetically and rhetorically heightened, transferred, and adorned, and after long use seem solid, canonical, and binding to a nation. Truths are illusions about which it has been forgotten that they are illusions, worn-out metaphors without sensory impact, coins which have lost their image and now can be used only as metal, and no longer as coins - Friedrich Nietzsche

Sabine
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Posted 04/28/04 - 05:35 PM:	#5
The Preacher wrote: Alright, I'm not gonna try and be smart, and just ask everyone a question that might not make sense takes reputation hat off Everyone posting on this board has a brain. Everyone also has a body of some sort which is, primarily, like a huge battery for the greatest computer on Earth. But the thing that has always puzzled me, since I could talk is this...Why, if you have a brain that is, for all intents and purposes identical to mine (and must be), and I have a brain, why is it, that all sight, sound, touch, taste, smell is relative to THIS brain? Why not your brain? What is embedded in my head that will be there for 60 odd years that is not in your head? Here's the other half of the question; if all I am is a collection of nerve interactions. That is to say, the only thing by which I can be identified is my thoughts (and if those thoughts stand in some causal or causal-like relationship to action, then these actions also), my thoughts are not my brain. So, could the "Jimmy Stewart program" be run on ANY brain? puts reputation hat back on Now, I know these are the sort of questions analytic philosophers have a field day with, but I'd like perspectives on this issue, and if anyone A) considers it a genuine question and B) can give any kind of coherant answer. I like that you can admit that you consider this a real problem. I think it is legitimate. Of course, many people out there deny that it is a real problem, and yet they can't deny that they fear death. I think you've nailed it right on the head. I don't know if you'll like my answer, but I think that you've always been you and always will be. Only being a human is but one form you'll take. I don't think consciousness emerges from a complex brain, because you run into precisely the problem that you raise. Why me/here/now? Sure, in 1977 I came into being and sooner or later I will cease to be. As if! All matter is conscious, but not all matter is rational. We're rational, i.e. f*d up. We're f*d up cuz we fear death/because we believe death exists. That is we think our consciousness emerged is a function of our brain's organization, and that when that organization loses cohesion, the consciousness correspondingly diminishes. only this time we can't come back! makes no sense at all...

kkawohl
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Posted 04/29/04 - 12:05 AM:	#6
IMHO, unless one is completely emotionless, a spirit is present. One may say that emotions are psychological, (of the psyche) structuralism, psychobiological, but they are nevertheless of the spirit; which also subscribes to a form of natural selection. How do you touch and feel without emotion or sense; which is spirit; without having it recorded by your subconscious where the spirit resides? The spirit is spirit and not a religious force and is neither heaven sent, nor heaven inspired, though some people via deep meditation can have their spirit interact with the spiritual realm. Sentience is the ability to sense, capability of feeling, consciousness. The spirit is in the subconscious and often controls what one writes and thinks. The soul and spirit are often considered identical, though the soul has also been referred to as the vessel for the spirit. Many of our experiences here are as an example of spiritual life. A child until about the age of about 2 is receptive to and believes all that he/she hears, observes, and is told. This is the most influential period and will greatly shape the remainder of his life; all information is stored within the subconscious. Every person is born with a spirit. A child’s spirit is a part of the mother's spirit which is passed down to the fetus and is then separated from its host at birth. It remains partially spiritually connected to the past host until it is capable of receiving its own data by the development of the child's reasoning capabilities at about 18 months from its birth. At that time the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit. The spirit can not exist without a host. If the host or a mother with reasoning capabilities is not available during that time, the child's spirit bonds temporarily with the spirit of its physical provider. At about age 1 1/2 the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit. The conscience relays information to the spirit. Consciousness arises when contact has been made with a base; (sense or emotion) this is when spirit initiates its first recording. The spirit is the database of the senses and emotions. There are several levels of consciousness: A. On a scale of 1 to 10 rating, with consciousness being level 1 where the spirit accumulates data and triggers emotions. B. The upper level of sub consciousness is at level 2; involuntary subconscious reactions are sometimes manifested. C. The dream level at 3; a series of thoughts and visions are introduced. Level 4 is deep sleep. D. Hibernation or very deep sleep is at level 5. E. At level 6 unconsciousness sets in. F. Spiritual data is stored between levels 6 and 9. G. At 10 the subconscious is at a point of physical imminent death. The spirit that has established lines of communications with a spiritual existence is transmitted to the spiritual realm, filtered and cleansed of all negative emotions; then it bonds with the spiritual existence. When a personality disorder affects the data input process, data is filtered. Brain injury does not supersede the soul, at that point data input simply ceases. If one seems to have severely impaired reasoning capabilities it does not necessarily mean that reasoning capabilities are not, or never were present. Sometimes reasoning capabilities can not be displayed or communicated to another. The mind is unable to consciously communicate with the spirit. The conscience is the only communicator with the spirit or soul. The conscience relays information to the spirit unless the conscience is anesthetized by immoral acts or evil deeds. The spirit or soul exists in the collective mental processes of the subconscious. The subconscious part of the mind and is also where the mental processes of creativity originate. The conscience adds to and stores life experiences with the spirit/soul. The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure and proper, or to stretch the norm. Kurt http://www.near-death.com/forum/0157.html
"I Am A Transcendentalist" http://www.transcendentalists.org

Sabine
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Posted 04/29/04 - 03:39 AM:	#7
rabeldin wrote: We know of one way that humans come into existence. We know of many ways they can drop out, but "becoming nothing" isn't a very good description of any of them. When the mechanism ceases to function its all over. existence/non-existence. what are you when you don't exist? don't blame me if our language is based on contradictions. death is when you 'cease to be'. that is, non-being.

mrcollision
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Posted 04/29/04 - 04:47 AM:	#8
I guess you could still exist. I mean, an apple exists - because it is there so I guess if your skeleton remains you kind-of still exist - just not in a conscious sense?
The demand to be loved is the greatest kind of arrogance.

rabeldin
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Posted 04/29/04 - 05:10 AM:	#9
Sabine wrote: so, the mechanism ceasing to function as a human being does not mean 'its all over' for the consciousness, does it? how do you figure? actually, i think death as the onset of nothingness is a particularly good description. it's not essentially different from your version. sure, mine has a certain absurd ring to it, perhaps because it is an absurd idea. its not coherent to think that the functioning mechanism gives rise to a subjective consciousness. The reason i think 'becoming nothing' makes sense is because we are something over and above a functioning mechanism--our consciousness. so when the mechanism stops functioning, that something over and above, becomes nothing. Consciousness is a function of a human mind which only exists in a human body. The body stops functioning, the mind stops function, voila, no more consciousness.
Leave no assumption unquestioned.

rabeldin
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Posted 04/29/04 - 05:13 AM:	#10
The Preacher wrote: ...Everyone posting on this board has a brain. Everyone also has a body of some sort which is, primarily, like a huge battery for the greatest computer on Earth. But the thing that has always puzzled me, since I could talk is this...Why, if you have a brain that is, for all intents and purposes identical to mine (and must be), and I have a brain, why is it, that all sight, sound, touch, taste, smell is relative to THIS brain? Why not your brain? What is embedded in my head that will be there for 60 odd years that is not in your head?... Our brains are not identical, similar, yes, but not identical. The differences in our genes and the differences in our experiences are real and critically important in making the difference between our brains. The genes mostly affect the structure and the experiences mostly affect the functions. Both are essential.
Leave no assumption unquestioned.

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