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probeman
Uncertain but reliable Usergroup: Members Joined: Dec 12, 2003 Location: US Total Topics: 16 Total Posts: 1832 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 12:15 AM:
Subject: Laws of Nature and Chance Are the laws of physics necessary or contingent? Astrophysicist Victor Stenger writes: "In a series of remarkable developments in the twentieth century, elementary particle physicists, astronomers, and cosmologists have removed much of the mystery that surrounds our understanding of the physical universe. They have found that the cosmos is, on the whole, comprehensible. Of course, no one can claim to understand or explain every facet of the structure of reality. However, we now have theories—mathematical models—that describe the general character of that reality. At this writing, these theories are consistent with all observational data, including measurements of incredible precision. While they will undoubtedly be superseded by better theories as science continues to advance, the great success of current schemes makes it likely that they are on the right track. The broad picture that is drawn by modern particle physics and cosmology is very probably the way nature is, and what we have yet to learn may be expected to fit comfortably on its foundation—just as these sciences fit comfortably on the foundation of Newtonian physics. We now have a deep and revolutionary understanding of the true nature of the mathematical quantities and theories of physics. We have realized that they are basically human inventions, including the notions of time and space. The quantities of physics are defined operationally by how we measure them. The laws of physics are not, as usually assumed, restrictions on the behavior of matter—handed down from above. Rather, they are restrictions on the way that physicists can formulate their theories. Of course, the laws of physics must agree with observations. But, beyond that, they are formulated in such a way as to assure, as best as possible, that they do not depend on any particular point of view. Otherwise they cannot be expected to faithfully describe an objective reality. When these requirements are met, the laws, as we know them, appear naturally. Furthermore, the forces that account for the interactions between bodies are introduced in the theory to preserve that theory’s independence of point of view. Not everything in the universe is thereby "explained." In this regard, "explanation" is taken to mean a statement accounting for all details on something, while "understanding" or "comprehension" is taken to mean the perception of the nature of something. The hope of any ultimate, complete theory from which everything may someday be derived is dimmed by the new developments. Instead, the structural details of the universe, including basic facts like particle masses and force strengths, can be understood as accidents. The origin of this structure may be likened to the origin of biological structure, the combined result of tautological necessity, random chance, and natural selection. For example there is nothing in the current inflationary standard model that insists that the fundamental constants have the values we observe. In fact, multiverse hypotheses expect that every combination of physical constants and it's resulting universe, to actually exist- we just happen to be in one that lasts long enough for complexity to have evolved. If you'd like to try your hand at designing universes try MonkeyGod, a program by Stenger for this purpose. http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/monkey.html So the question is: if the laws of physics are contingent upon chance as opposed to necessity, should we consider ourselves lucky rather than special? Certainty is not a gift to humanity- it is a curse. |
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wuliheron
Tenured Poster Usergroup: Members Joined: Jun 02, 2003 Location: Chesapeake, VA Total Topics: 18 Total Posts: 5044 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 7:52 AM:
probeman wrote: So the question is: if the laws of physics are contingent upon chance as opposed to necessity, should we consider ourselves lucky rather than special? We don't know that the laws of physics are contingent on chance, hence it is a moot question. In fact, I couldn't help but chuckle at the author's assertion that the cosmos appears orderly to us. Only recently have cosmologists attained the tools needed for indepth study and the results have been anything but orderly. For example, today they believe 95% of the universe is composed of mysterious dark matter/energy, that at around half the current lifespan of the universe it suddenly accelerated for no known reason, and that overall the universe could be infinite or near infinite. If such things are not the very definition of the unknown I have no clue what the words mean. When in trouble, When in doubt, Run in circles, Scream and Shout! |
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NoSoul
Economic determinist Usergroup: Members Joined: Feb 05, 2004 Total Topics: 25 Total Posts: 610 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 9:14 AM:
Probeman, I happen to really like the Multiverse theory on so many levels. It's a perfectly reasonable counter to assertions of "The Anthropic Principle." Further, the Multiverse theory is so, so, so mind-bogglingly bizarre, that its very bizarreness & alien counterintuitivenes makes it seem more likely to be a perfectly naturalistic explanation which exists completely independent of any of Humankind's ideals. That is, I figure if the Anthropic Principle is untrue, then the real explanation for "why" the universe/Multiverse is as it is, must entail some incredibly bizarre physical phenomena which, more than likely, human beings couldn't possibly physically survive in, or even experience or even comprehend. The Multiverse theory of 11-dimensional "branes" slamming into each other every few trillion years & creating randomly-assembled single Universes of varying, random dimensional configurations -- of which our own 4-D Universe of SpaceTime is but merely one of a jillion possible Universes -- is so satisfyingly bizarre & alien to all experience & intuition, moreover completely obviating the Anthropic Principle, that I strongly feel it must be more or less the correct explanation. Further, as mindbendingly bizarre as the Multiverse theory is, it nonetheless is naturalistic, and thus is conceivably conformable to theory & observation. This is a huge plus, too, since it absolutely gets around Intelligent Design (a.k.a. Anthropic Principle) assertions. Firmly tie the mind, resembling a mad elephant, to the strong pillar of its perceptual content, with the rope of contemplative inspection, and gradually tame it with the hook of discrimination. -- Buddhist Handbook, Salamander Press To the poet and sage, all things are friendly and hallowed, all experiences profitable, all days holy, all men divine. - Nietzsche/Emerson |
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probeman
Uncertain but reliable Usergroup: Members Joined: Dec 12, 2003 Location: US Total Topics: 16 Total Posts: 1832 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 9:45 AM:
wuliheron wrote: We don't know that the laws of physics are contingent on chance, hence it is a moot question. In fact, I couldn't help but chuckle at the author's assertion that the cosmos appears orderly to us. Only recently have cosmologists attained the tools needed for indepth study and the results have been anything but orderly. For example, today they believe 95% of the universe is composed of mysterious dark matter/energy, that at around half the current lifespan of the universe it suddenly accelerated for no known reason, and that overall the universe could be infinite or near infinite. If such things are not the very definition of the unknown I have no clue what the words mean. Wu, Part of the problem is that words mean different things in popular and scientific usage. When discussing the laws of physics and the universe science is fairly confident that as we go back in time to the big bang, the universe becomes more simple, more homogeneous, less ordered, less complex, more symmetrical and more chaotic. In popular usage these words are sometimes opposed but in physics, simple is considered less ordered because it is less complex. Symmetry is opposed to complexity by the fact that more symmetrical things require less information to describe them. This standard model of physics has been strongly upheld in this regard by experiments unifiying the electromagnetic and weak forces. At this extremely high energy cooresponding to roughly 10^-12 seconds (or 10^15K degrees) you can imagine that most of the complexity of the universe, including all molecules and even atoms were not even present (not even protons and neutrons for that matter). At earlier times and higher temperatures the universe is even more symmetrical and chaotic and simple. So when physicists say that the universe is more ordered now than it used to be, they are simply referring to the observable fact that as the universe has cooled, the laws of nature (fundamental forces) appear to have formed spontaneously from the breaking of this symmetry, thereby allowing the more complex structures we see to form. Life, as requiring vast amounts of information, appears to be the most complex manifestation yet of complexity in the universe. The question is: is this complexity likely or is it "special"? Certainty is not a gift to humanity- it is a curse. |
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probeman
Uncertain but reliable Usergroup: Members Joined: Dec 12, 2003 Location: US Total Topics: 16 Total Posts: 1832 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 10:04 AM:
NoSoul wrote: Further, the Multiverse theory is so, so, so mind-bogglingly bizarre, that its very bizarreness & alien counterintuitivenes makes it seem more likely to be a perfectly naturalistic explanation which exists completely independent of any of Humankind's ideals. Well I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote. In fact some have argued that Occam's Razor prohibits a multiplicity of universes, when what it really prohibits is a multiplicity of explanations. In other words positing a single universe requires an additional unsubstantiated hypothesis. What we shouldn't posit are additional physical laws above what is necessary to describe what we observe and a multiverse hypothesis unintuitive as it sounds fits this criteria. In any case, science isn't beholden to our intuitions. There is no law that says that the universe must be naively "sensible". This gets to my point- the Copernican principle which is named after the man and states "There is nothing special about our location in the universe". This principle in the progression from tribal beliefs, to geocentrism, to heliocentrism to galactic centrism to virgo cluster centrism to inflationary standard model shows that theories based on humanity's location in the universe have consistently been flawed. This is also a metaphysical reason why I suspect that the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is flawed- because is puts "observers" in the center of it's metaphysics. I rather suspect that the Everett-DeWitt interpretations (aka many worlds decohernce) is more consistent with the Copernican Principle that humanity is not special in any regard. Lucky maybe. Interestingly in recent surveys at several quantum physics conferences, the MW interpretaion came in a close second to the Copenhagen. Of course among quantum solid state physicists, the many worlds interpretation is taken for granted since decoherence and coherence is want makes quantum computing possible. Very recent measurements of electron trajectories in quantum cavities show statistically fractal interferences that support this view. Certainty is not a gift to humanity- it is a curse. |
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NoSoul
Economic determinist Usergroup: Members Joined: Feb 05, 2004 Total Topics: 25 Total Posts: 610 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 10:20 AM:
probeman wrote: ...some have argued that Occam's Razor prohibits a multiplicity of universes, when what it really prohibits is a multiplicity of explanations. In other words positing a single universe requires an additional unsubstantiated hypothesis. What we shouldn't posit are additional physical laws above what is necessary to describe what we observe and a multiverse hypothesis unintuitive as it sounds fits this criteria. Yes, I've sort of subconsciously thought this for awhile now. The technical complexity of Multiverse theory doesn't violate Occam's Razor as much as the philosophical messiness of the Anthropic Priciple does. In any case, science isn't beholden to our intuitions. There is no law that says that the universe must be naively "sensible". The only question I have about that is the meaning of "intuitions:" After all, aren't scientific theories, mathematics, & principles such as Occam's Razor, theselves developed from intuitions (refined by reference to experience & observation, of course). This gets to my point- the Copernican principle which is named after the man and states "There is nothing special about our location in the universe". This principle in the progression from tribal beliefs, to geocentrism, to heliocentrism to galactic centrism to virgo cluster centrism to inflationary standard model shows that theories based on humanity's location in the universe have consistently been flawed. This is also a metaphysical reason why I suspect that the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is flawed- because is puts "observers" in the center of it's metaphysics. I rather suspect that the Everett-DeWitt interpretations (aka many worlds decohernce) is more consistent with the Copernican Principle that humanity is not special in any regard. Lucky maybe. I like the MWI too! However the one thing is that it seems (philosophically) a victory for the "Deteminism" side of the age-old philosophic debate. As you say, subjectivity has no relevant role in objective reality in the Many Worlds Interpretation. I'm more or less a Romantic about the ability of sentient creatures to live their own lives, to "make their own destinies." However, I must admit that this does not necessarily require justification or permission from objective, physical reality itself. Firmly tie the mind, resembling a mad elephant, to the strong pillar of its perceptual content, with the rope of contemplative inspection, and gradually tame it with the hook of discrimination. -- Buddhist Handbook, Salamander Press To the poet and sage, all things are friendly and hallowed, all experiences profitable, all days holy, all men divine. - Nietzsche/Emerson |
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Kwalish Kid
Tenured Poster Usergroup: Members Joined: Sep 26, 2004 Total Topics: 38 Total Posts: 4289 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 10:23 AM:
No experiment supports the many-worlds interpretation over any other interpretation. Find me one reference that makes this claim. There is no reason to suppose that nature must conform to our standard way of reasoning, but that's no reason to follow every theory that make's one's head spin. Stay out of science and just drop acid! Probably done with philosophy. Will check PMs from time to time. |
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NoSoul
Economic determinist Usergroup: Members Joined: Feb 05, 2004 Total Topics: 25 Total Posts: 610 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 10:31 AM:
Perhaps direct empirical testing of the Multiverse theory (which is different from the Many Worlds Interpretation) is impossible. On the other hand, inference is permitted in physics if, (1) there are long-standing known physical standards that can be observed with better sensing equipment; and (2) if explanations of these phenomena are compatible with & computable by both mathematics & standing physics theories (with often modifications & additions). On the other hand, there's a-priori NO WAY the Anthropic Principle can even in principle be tested or confirmed or disconfirmed. By definition Intelligent Design & Anthropic Principle do not even PERMIT themselves to be tested by observations, standing scientific theory, or with math/computation. They are by definition SUPER-natural & hence completely violate Occam's Razor. Firmly tie the mind, resembling a mad elephant, to the strong pillar of its perceptual content, with the rope of contemplative inspection, and gradually tame it with the hook of discrimination. -- Buddhist Handbook, Salamander Press To the poet and sage, all things are friendly and hallowed, all experiences profitable, all days holy, all men divine. - Nietzsche/Emerson |
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NoSoul
Economic determinist Usergroup: Members Joined: Feb 05, 2004 Total Topics: 25 Total Posts: 610 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 10:37 AM:
By the way, Probeman, Just what is the difference between the Many Worlds Interpretation (assuming true) and the Multiverse/M-Theory? MWI seems to require that "many" different universes exist, somehow, in different "vibrational frequencies" or something, essentially side-by-side or on top of each other. They all differ merely by the paths single subatomic particles took at some time in their respective histories, because Quantum Mechanics requires multiple possibilities but only single (coherent) outcomes. On the other hand, the Multiverse is literally supposed to be "just a really really big space beyond our own universe." A "space" which is actually an 11-dimensional "membrane" or has 10-dimensional membranes within it that collide together every few trillion years to produce random single universes. It seems that if both MWI and the Multiverse theory were true, then there might exist a literally innumerable amount of other universes out there (and "over there"). Firmly tie the mind, resembling a mad elephant, to the strong pillar of its perceptual content, with the rope of contemplative inspection, and gradually tame it with the hook of discrimination. -- Buddhist Handbook, Salamander Press To the poet and sage, all things are friendly and hallowed, all experiences profitable, all days holy, all men divine. - Nietzsche/Emerson |
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probeman
Uncertain but reliable Usergroup: Members Joined: Dec 12, 2003 Location: US Total Topics: 16 Total Posts: 1832 |
Posted Mar 11, 2005 - 11:14 AM:
NoSoul wrote: The only question I have about that is the meaning of "intuitions:" After all, aren't scientific theories, mathematics, & principles such as Occam's Razor, theselves developed from intuitions (refined by reference to experience & observation, of course). But science, just like usefully evolved emotional intuitions, are tested and refined by reality. So it would make sense that even random quessing would result in an improved theory (model) of reality, by constantly checking it against improved observations of reality. NoSoul wrote: However the one thing is that it seems (philosophically) a victory for the "Deteminism" side of the age-old philosophic debate. As you say, subjectivity has no relevant role in objective reality in the Many Worlds Interpretation. I'm more or less a Romantic about the ability of sentient creatures to live their own lives, to "make their own destinies." However, I must admit that this does not necessarily require justification or permission from objective, physical reality itself. Well then you're in luck. Determinism is no threat to the "kinds of free will that are worth having" as Dennett says. In fact determinism actually assists the evolution of complex structures like life since a even slightly deterministic universe is more predictable and therefore "accessible" to exploitation. Here's a thought experiment that I made up that speaks to this a little. "Imagine a deterministic Dennettian brick ducking agent (or even a simple device) faced with a modified brick throwing machine which is triggered by the decay of a radio-nuclide (quantum randomness). In essence the brick throwing machine is simply an indeterminism amplifier. Now even if the agent is strictly determined in the Laplacian sense (that is, it's future is completely determined, in principle, by non-random mechanistic processes), it seems to me that the fact that it can still avoid the bricks from the completely random indeterministic brick thrower shows that the agent's future is not "pre-determined" in any meaningful sense. As you would say, it has free-will worth having (if it is to avoid bricks anyway)." I like romanticism as much as the next guy- hey I've written more than a few love songs. But just as I can enjoy a fine dinner even though it's "just" digestion, I can enjoy life even though it's "just" heuristic algorithms. If multiverse determinism is true then many things that could happen actually do happen, but the probabilities are still there as deterministic realizations. So it does matter what each of us in our own universes choose to do. "Many-Worlds, whilst deterministic on the objective universal level, is indeterministic on the subjective level so the situation is certainly no better or worse for free-will than in the Copenhagen view. Traditional Copenhagen indeterministic quantum mechanics only slightly weakens the case for free-will. In quantum terms each neuron is an essentially classical object. Consequently quantum noise in the brain is at such a low level that it probably doesn't often alter, except very rarely, the critical mechanistic behaviour of sufficient neurons to cause a decision to be different than we might otherwise expect. The consensus view amongst experts is that free-will is the consequence of the mechanistic operation of our brains, the firing of neurons, discharging across synapses etc. and fully compatible with the determinism of classical physics. Free-will is the inability of an intelligent, self-aware mechanism to predict its own future actions due to the logical impossibility of any mechanism containing a complete internal model of itself rather than any inherent indeterminism in the mechanism's operation. Nevertheless, some people find that with all possible decisions being realised in different worlds that the prima face situation for free- will looks quite difficult. Does this multiplicity of outcomes destroy free-will? If both sides of a choice are selected in different worlds why bother to spend time weighing the evidence before selecting? The answer is that whilst all decisions are realised, some are realised more often than others - or to put to more precisely each branch of a decision has its own weighting or measure which enforces the usual laws of quantum statistics. This measure is supplied by the mathematical structure of the Hilbert spaces. Every Hilbert space has a norm, constructed from the inner product, - which we can think of as analogous to a volume - which weights each world or collection of worlds. A world of zero volume is never realised. Worlds in which the conventional statistical predictions consistently break down have zero volume and so are never realised. (See "How do probabilities emerge within many-worlds?") Thus our actions, as expressions of our will, correlate with the weights associated with worlds. This, of course, matches our subjective experience of being able to exercise our will, form moral judgements and be held responsible for our actions." From http://www.hedweb.com/everett/everett.htm#free-will Certainty is not a gift to humanity- it is a curse. |
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