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Kule Ingoze - Blood Simulacra
Does materia and medium change how we consider art?

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Kule Ingoze - Blood Simulacra

Jesroy
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Posted 02/09/08 - 11:55 AM:	#26
Tobias, just because everytime you view something you necessarily (according to you) think of it with presuppositions, it does not follow that presuppositionless aspects of it cannot be considered separately. Ex. I view the David. I unfailingly view him with the presupposition that he is male, because I know that he was crafted by a person and that people craft other people and that this particular sculpture resembles the male species with which I am already familiar, etc., furthermore, my conception of him as a male is limited to "my conception" of him as a male, unless there is some higher Idea of "male" with which I am acquainted, though that such Ideas exist is questionable, and doubly unlikely in the case of "male." Nevertheless--though at once I must recognize him as a male and with countless other presuppositions, I can ALSO consider him aesthetically, that is, without the presuppositions. I do not think it at all senseless that a person can consider things in this presuppositionless state. The David, even if it does not represent the Idea "David," does exhibit some very fine sculpting. Very fine sculpting is an idea, and perhaps it is an idea composed of several Ideas. Fine sculpting is timeless. It neither comes into being nor passes into nothing. It is not a phenomena of any sort, though via what is impermanent a person can conceive of the timeless. This is, I think, most evident in classical music, where only sensitivity to notes and awareness of the various ideas touched by the notes heighten the artistic experience, and presuppositions serve only to diminish the experience. That said, I do not deny (nor affirm) the possibility of presuppositional art, by which I mean that art which is realized through presuppositions and the connection of concepts, etc. Edited by Jesroy on 02/09/08 - 12:13 PM
_____________________ "There's no Tuesday like tomorrow" - Picador Vaseli "All roads lead to Amber" - Random

Tobias
metaphysical exorcist

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Posted 02/10/08 - 04:56 AM:	#27
Nevertheless--though at once I must recognize him as a male and with countless other presuppositions, I can ALSO consider him aesthetically, that is, without the presuppositions. I do not think it at all senseless that a person can consider things in this presuppositionless state. You say so, but you can't know because we always view it with those presuppositions intact. At least, I would have no idea how to 'switch them off'. Even when you say "fine sculpting', you betray a certain knowledge of what it is to sculpt, the difficulties of it, the fact that an sculptor made it etc. You and Fergus crave for something immediate, but there is no such thing, only in our heads it exists. (and maybe in the experience of the body, when you feel the tactile touch of a table or something, but whenever you make a judgment, aesthetic or otherwise, it is mediated by a mind filled with added luggage.
_____________________ The power of Kant compels you The power of Kant compels you The power of Kant compels you "Im tiefen, tiefen Wald Da steht ein Krankenhaus, Darin tauscht ein kleiner Doktor Liebenden die Herzen aus." Samsas Traum - Stromausfall im Herzpital

ctaylor
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Posted 02/10/08 - 10:38 AM:	#28
I take the Cavell/Fried view on this subject. It is particular works of art that make materials count as artistically significant. Works of art acknowledge (though not necessarily by explicit reference)their materials in ways that make the materials (their particular qualities) matter. Outside of such acknowledgments, a painting, for example, is only incidentally made of paint.

Jesroy
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Posted 02/10/08 - 04:18 PM:	#29
You would switch them (the presuppositions) off either by: for some people they naturally switch off when given the proper circumstances; or concentration. Also, they can exist simultaneously, that is, one can be in the presuppositional state and nonpresuppositional state at the same time. I explain this as the two "states" being generated each by separate faculties. That such states are both, without doubt, parts of the human condition, I will show with the following example. This will still leave in question a very important aspect, that of whether or not, beyond this presuppositionless state simply existing, there lies in it the possibility of art, and I have tried to at least expound upon this question in this post. Suppose a painting composed of various forms of various colors. Suppose then that a person were to judge this painting in the following "presuppositional" way: These forms, in this colors, make me think of World War II. It is brilliant how the artist is able to call World War II to the viewer's mind. If this was truly the artist's intention, I would not consider it art. In the example, it must be acknowledged that the viewer is able to consider the forms and colors, that is, not simply suppositions, or else how would he connect the suppositions in the first place? This is my proof that the nonsuppositional state exists. It seems an insignificant point that must be readily accepted by anyone. I do not think it is the crux of this discussion. I think the crux of this discussion is whether or not Ideas, Essences, "spirits," exist, and whether they are accessible via the consideration/contemplation of phenomena. Consider the following example, very similar to the previous: Suppose a painting composed of various forms of various colors. Suppose then that a person were to judge this painting in the following "presuppositional" way: These forms, in this colors, make me think of World War II. It is brilliant how the artist is able to capture the spirit of World War II. If there indeed can exist such a spirit, there are two not mutually exclusive possibilities: 1. The spirit does not belong wholly to World War II, but merely shows itself in World War II. For example, say it had a "hectic" spirit, or merely that it was "hectic." Hectic is not a property of World War II alone, but an Idea that World War II shares with a great many things. 2. The spirit is in fact the spirit of World War II, and nothing but World War II, however, AS A TIMELESS IDEA. Consider the following comparison. If World War II has its own spirit, I think it follows that all things have their own spirit. Suppose then, a canvas of blue and yellow shapes. These blue and yellow shapes also have their own spirit. Yet if a second identical canvas is produced, it will possess the same spirit/Idea. The Idea then is not a property of the actual physical canvas, nor is it a part of any phenomena. If there is presuppositional art, (I understand that a negative does not imply the existence of presuppositionless art), then what can art ever amount to besides varying presuppositions lined up with one another? And how can music be considered presuppositional? Perhaps by presuppositional art you mean that art which is presuppositional only insofar as it is intuited, by which I mean the following. A blue canvas is given with a large bright yellow circle slightly upperleft of the center. This calls to the viewer's mind the sun (via presuppositions). This gives rise to great artistic sentiments within the viewer, who describes his state as glowing and radiant. Glowing and radiant, are these not timeless, presuppositionless sentiments? Was it not some image/representation, whether the painting or the sun, or the viewer's conception of the sun (formed by presuppositions, but nonetheless the leap from the conception of the sun to radiantness is done without presuppositions)? Otherwise this entire artistic experience would merely by the circumstantially orchestrated boost of feeling, no different then taking a pill and feeling great, or worse, mere piling of presuppositions. Penultimately, the point regarding art being limited to human creation is I think nothing more than a quibble. Art refers to what is constructed artificially. There is nothing that presents a great natural scene from producing artistic sentiments, or the realization of Ideas in the person. It merely happens that people, especially those called artists, are capable of grasping these ideas and setting them down so that they are all the more apparent. Lastly, I do not think a good painting can be apprecaited without contemplation of the forms and colors, not as devices to arouse in the viewer various recollections, that is, as presuppositions, but as themselves. If it is truly good art, this will suffice for the Idea to be realized. Of course, most visual art does include the accompaniment of content, i.e. the presuppositional, but this is only a guide, or at any rate, it is really a separate part of the painting from the forms and colors themselves, and so one object in visual art is usually to unite these two aspects of the painting in order to realize the Idea better. All of this coincides with my longstanding views on art, but I must say that anyone who wants to see very similar ideas articulated more clearly should look to the third book of The World as Will and Representation. Edited by Jesroy on 02/10/08 - 05:45 PM
_____________________ "There's no Tuesday like tomorrow" - Picador Vaseli "All roads lead to Amber" - Random

Fergus Currie
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Posted 02/29/08 - 08:16 AM:	#30
This reference to Schopenhauer is another thread which I will post now.
_____________________ ...and so Achilles never reaches the tortoise. ...so never send Achilles to get fags!

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