Philosophy Forums


It is raining

PrintPrint


Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

It is raining
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6301
Posted 10/30/09 - 02:55 PM:
quote post
#41
SIR2U wrote:
Banno wrote:
It's raining weather?

Another fabrication. Too big a stretch, surly


You have got it backwards, "The weather is raining" would be the correct way to say it. Remember that the subject does the action named by the verb not the other way round.

When you say "It is sunny" you are talking about the same thing, It is just anothe type of predicate adjective.

But one might use the phrase "it is raining" without having any notion of the generic term "weather".

Your approach is ad hoc, an attempt to save the vague notion that all sentences have a subject and a predicate from falsification. I don't buy it.


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6301
Posted 10/30/09 - 02:58 PM:
quote post
#42
Kant Chocula wrote:
I like this problem. I think I'll venture a possible solution.

In the statement, "it is raining," "it" refers to the set of conditions which renders the statement true or false. Can I get a "Tarski" for the win?

"It is raining" is true if and only if it is raining, to be sure. But there are of course no additional conditions to be met for "it is raining" to be true.

So, no, no "Tarski" for you.


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6301
Posted 10/30/09 - 03:01 PM:
quote post
#43
quickly wrote:
I'm fairly sure that the verb "to rain" has variable valence and is also impersonal. For instance, it can be used intransitively in "it's raining"; or it can be used transitively as in "it's raining cats and dogs." In an intransitive use "to rain" requires one argument (subject), and in a transitive use it requires two arguments (subject, object). English, however, because it is not a pro-drop language, requires that all intransitive verbs have one argument. The problem arises with impersonal verbs, which are syntactically intransitive, and English's requirement that each verb have at least one verb argument. When you say "It is raining," PRO does not actually reference a specific thing of which the verbal ("raining") is predicated of. So the subject position becomes occupied by a dummy subject, PRO "it." This arises because syntactically the verb is intransitive (requires subject), but semantically it is impersonal, and thus requires that its argument be fulfilled, although it is not actually in reference to some thing.

I think pragmatically some other posters have been correct. A pronoun's reference occurs only when contextually specified, because they are deictic. Pronouns are said to have an origo which specifies the spatiotemporal location of the reference of the pronoun, like most deictic utterances which specify both time and place, e.g., demonstratives in a discourse or egocentric pronouns or adjectives such as "I" or "my." But when the impersonal dummy pronoun is used with impersonal verbs, "it" takes on a variety of meanings, and seems to have semantic content when in fact is only present because English requires, syntactically, the argument to be fulfilled. My guess would be that "it" fulfills certain implication and entailment rules of pragmatic discourse, and thus does have meaning, but whether the pronominal phrase or the verb itself is supplying these conditions I'm uncertain of.

If it was raining, and you merely spoke the noun "rain" or verbal "raining," the same pragmatic conditions for the truth of the utterance would be required as if you said "It is raining." So it would seem as though "it" is not giving information, but only making the utterance grammatical.

I wish I had written that. Or rather, I wish I had been capable of writing that. I agree (I think).


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6301
Posted 10/30/09 - 03:03 PM:
quote post
#44
Willowz wrote:
Banno wrote:

Well, it was. But now it is sunny. This morning it was foggy. These all seem to be talking about the same thing. Still don't understand what it is.
What is it? How would you explain it?

I think Quickly just did...


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Cadrache
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Dec 09, 2006
Location: AB, Canada

Total Topics: 104
Total Posts: 2644
Posted 10/30/09 - 03:26 PM:
quote post
#45
It's fairly accurate Banno. One of the minor flaws is the aspect of whether or not a "Group" befits the "requires that all intransitive verbs have one argument." part.


Like, can I claim "man" in lieu of a specified person like "Quickly"?


I can claim an error in the idea "man" in that we cannot truly determine if it is intrinsative or transative independently from the sentence.

Edited by Cadrache on 10/30/09 - 03:51 PM. Reason: Thought to proper word transition didn't work.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Willowz
Wilson wants a smile.
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 14, 2008

Total Topics: 19
Total Posts: 633
Posted 10/30/09 - 04:39 PM:
quote post
#46
quickly wrote:
When you say "It is raining," PRO does not actually reference a specific thing of which the verbal ("raining") is predicated of. So the subject position becomes occupied by a dummy subject, PRO "it."
Could you explain one thing. What is "it" reffering to/o? Because when talking about rain "it" becomes a subject, but rain is an object. How does an object magically become a subject?

This song will prepare you for a good smile.
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6301
Posted 10/30/09 - 04:41 PM:
quote post
#47
Poor Will...


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Willowz
Wilson wants a smile.
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 14, 2008

Total Topics: 19
Total Posts: 633
Posted 10/30/09 - 04:44 PM:
quote post
#48
What?! Can't a man have his cake in peace?

This song will prepare you for a good smile.
quickly
Graduate
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Oct 29, 2007

Total Topics: 31
Total Posts: 233
Posted 10/30/09 - 04:59 PM:
quote post
#49
On the standard transformational analysis, the dummy pronoun doesn't refer to anything. It is required to make the sentence grammatical. Verbs like rain are sometimes called "weather verbs," since almost all semantically impersonal verbs in English refer to the weather.

There are different view, however. Some will claim that it is denotational, but they are either (a) rejecting the standard interpretation of grammatical structures (I am a fan); or (b) confusing pragmatic analysis or sociological analysis with syntactic and semantic analysis (I am not a fan).

Sunt bona, sunt quaedam mediocria, sunt mala plura
quae legis hic; aliter non fit philosophyforums.com

(cf., Martial, Epigrammata I.XVI)
mutemaler
Professor
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Total Topics: 8
Total Posts: 664
Posted 10/30/09 - 05:13 PM:
quote post
#50
Willowz wrote:
Could you explain one thing. What is "it" reffering to/o? Because when talking about rain "it" becomes a subject, but rain is an object. How does an object magically become a subject?

The "it" is a dummy subject, does not refer to anything.

It is there because the theories of mind and language of a particular cultural tradition demand it.
Download thread as

Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8



Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.