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Isn't existence amazing?

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Isn't existence amazing?

J.D.
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Posted 04/20/08 - 05:21 PM: Subject: Isn't existence amazing?	#1
So I've thought about this most of my life, and it's always incredibly difficult to put into words. The basis is that we can percieve with our eyes, feel with our hands, e.t.c.. Along with that, we are capable of thought, and all this makes up our existence. The fact that I have never percieved using someone else's eyes is almost a slap in the face to help me return to reality. I am me, and no one else can be me, just like I can be no one else. This is the reason that we like to think we have a purpose in life. We are restricted to playing our own role in life, and since we can't choose to be someone who is already great, we either strive to become great, or we give ourselves a purpose. That aside, after analyzing the very essence of my existence, I must marvel at its complexity. I also begin to think differently about how to act and such, being that I am the only person impossible for me to observe in third person. So basically, I am me. It seems a simple concept but with the right mindset it seems like one less freedom. So, discuss, I guess. ^^
_____________________ "I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -René Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

Wosret
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Posted 04/20/08 - 05:47 PM:	#2
I agree, existence is pretty fantastic. I know I am having a damn good time. Speak for yourself though. Boku wa daisugoi desu! I'm pretty damn great! You should see me play video games. Mission accomplished! Some people preceive through other people's eyes. If I'm not mistaken, eye transplants have been successfully preformed. I agree, and also think that existence is undescribably awesome. I like Dawkins example of how lucky we are to exist. Compared to possible people allowed by genetics, incredibly more people will never be born than those that have been or will be born. Yay me! I was also lucky enough to be born in this day and age, and as myself (whom I happen to like quite a lot). So yes, I got plenty to be happy about. Sucks that it will someday end, but ohwell, nothing is permanent.
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Jesse
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Posted 04/20/08 - 07:53 PM:	#3
I, too, agree. There is nothing more amazing in this world than existence itself. I feel very lucky to be a living being. I would, however, also like to experience life through another's eyes. I would first come to the conclusion that it is somewhat similar to how I view life as a living thing, but then I also realize that I could very likely be very wrong. It would be an amazing experience to see life in a whole new view. It would be very enlightening, too. I always wonder what it would be like if all humans, or living things in general, could live as a single unit that share their knowledge and perceptions if only for a moment. What an experience that would be! Still, I am very happy to be who I am. I wouldn't want to be someone else forever.
_____________________ Never stop being amazed. Don't let life become a habit.

Wosret
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Posted 04/20/08 - 08:36 PM:	#4
Jesse wrote: I always wonder what it would be like if all humans, or living things in general, could live as a single unit that share their knowledge and perceptions if only for a moment. It could happen, "we are the borg, you will be assimilated. Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistence is futile!"
_____________________ "cute girls really should stick with other cute girls, hm?" - Morinaga Milk

J.D.
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Posted 04/21/08 - 01:54 PM:	#5
Agreed, both of you. How can one help but to like oneself? If you don't, then you seek to change until you do. Though I avoid upright just saying that. XD Also, I am glad I'm me, I agree that I wouldn't want to be someone else forever. It would be nice for a taste or reality from someone else's perspective though. It would also be nice to observe myself...it's much easier to point out flaws in someone from third person.
_____________________ "I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -René Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

despinozist
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Posted 04/21/08 - 03:21 PM:	#6
At times there is something utterly horrifying about existence.
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The Escapist
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Posted 04/21/08 - 03:30 PM:	#7
despinozist wrote: At times there is something utterly horrifying about existence. Being able to be horrified is amazing too.
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The Escapist
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Posted 04/21/08 - 03:34 PM:	#8
Jesse wrote: I always wonder what it would be like if all humans, or living things in general, could live as a single unit that share their knowledge and perceptions if only for a moment. What an experience that would be! I don't think it would be so different to what you already experience Jesse. What you experience seems to you like the world, and it's the same for everybody.
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nac
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Posted 04/21/08 - 06:25 PM:	#9
"Existence" is a delusion. We are complex lumps of chemical matter floating in a gaseous solution. The illogical sense of optimism and the illusion of free will built into us is merely a silly "survival" instinct. You see, I can't believe in the idea of "sentience". I see the world as a series of complex, but mostly deterministic chemical reactions with an element of quantum randomness thrown in for good measure. What will happen will happen, and "sentience" cannot change it's course, only assist it no matter what it "decides" to do. ... which is pretty "amazing" in itself! :P

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Posted 04/21/08 - 07:17 PM:	#10
I don't know how you define existence, but I define it as occupying reality, or occupying space and time. In this sense, I am quite confident that existence is no delusion. If you define it some other way, then don't believe existence exists ( ) for all I care. Though it might be prudent that you find out what people mean by something before you call them delusional.
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Floyd
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Posted 04/21/08 - 07:58 PM:	#11
Yep, I love being alive. And I cannot imagine a love without amazement and wonder.
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Cafe Rob
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Posted 04/21/08 - 11:28 PM:	#12
Try reading Schopenhauer's; "The World as Will and Representation," he sees our world as the worst of all possible worlds. I don't want to seem too pessimistic but he does present a strong argument.

Wosret
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Posted 04/22/08 - 06:49 AM:	#13
Sounds like a rediculous claim to me. Of all possible worlds? So you honestly can't think of a single thing that would make the world worse, and is possible? I can think of quite a few. The world surely could be better, though I think that the person the wins 5 million dollars in the lottery and is upset that it wasn't 10 million needs a kick in the face.
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Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 03:47 PM:	#14
I'm with Schopenhauer. This world is as bad as the existence of sentient life can possibly allow. Nothing ridiculous about it perfectly sound argument. If it was any worse, we would all exterminate each other. We might even feel good about it.

Wosret
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Posted 04/22/08 - 03:53 PM:	#15
Lol, it's not an argument, it's an assertion which you yourself just admit isn't true. You just agreed that this is the worst of all possible worlds, and then gave an example of a worse one?
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Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 05:33 PM:	#16
Erm? Not really. We are not concerned with a world without intelligent life. If everyone dies, we cannot measure "goodness" anyway, so it is perfectly valid.

Wosret
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Posted 04/22/08 - 05:38 PM:	#17
Are there more than one of you at your end? Or are you attempting to speak for Cafe Rob as well? I'm concerned with worlds without intelligent life. I am quite interested in other worlds in the solar system. If you mean an existence without intelligent life, then obviously, there would be no one around to be concerned. That is equivelent to saying: "without apples there would be no apple juice." Clearly... Edited by Wosret on 04/22/08 - 07:06 PM
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Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 06:43 PM:	#18
Theoretical Good World --------------------------------World better-than-ours--------Our World(?) You are saying you can think of a worse world than ours. Perhaps give me an example before things get messy? If sentient life ceases to exist, how can you say that the world is bad? However, I could think of ways in which the world could be better. A world better than ours could say: things could get worse. Our world is already bad enough that if people become more selfish/intolerant the world will be destroyed (humanity anyway). After that, there is no better or worse left.

Wosret
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Posted 04/22/08 - 07:00 PM:	#19
A world without the internet would be worse. A world without my favorite foods, or things like anime and manga would be worse. A world where life expectency is cut in half would be worse. A world where it hurt to breath the air, where all food tasted like shit. A world that had hotter summers and colder winters would be worse. A world where people were a little dumber, a little crueler, and a littler more violent would be worse. A world where it rained acid daily would be worse. A world with giant roaming predators would be worse. A world where the Nazi's won the war would be worse. A world that never come up with germ theory, that didn't invent labor saying devices. A world where women are uglier, a world where everyone is muslim. A world where country music was the only music. If you think this is the worst possible world, then you have an extremely limited imagination.
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Cafe Rob
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Posted 04/22/08 - 10:39 PM:	#20
"Wosret" wrote: If you think this is the worst possible world, then you have an extremely limited imagination. Well,it's not so much about particular aspects of life but more about the universals. For instance Schopenhauer saw mankind as a striving, irrational will. He argued that reason plays a subordinate role and that our lives are largely 'determined.' He also makes the point that each creature lives upon some other creature for it's survival and that 'Man is a wolf to Man.' He considered this to be a suffering life because we can never satisfy our 'wants,' and if we ever do then we would quickly become bored and feel even worse. Although this may seem a pessimistic view, in some ways it's better to face up to the situation rather believe things to be otherwise. He made the point that we live our lives in expectation of future events and never actually fully experience the 'here and now,' and then explains that the 'here and now' is all that life can ever be for us. The thing about disappointment and suffering is that it is always considered to be essentially personal but this is not the case. Everyone suffers in some way or other, every living thing, but man suffers the most.

Wosret
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Posted 04/22/08 - 11:06 PM:	#21
First of all, that is all projection. He many think all of that, and see things that way, and he is free to; but it in no way implies that it is categorically so. I didn't say that I thought that existence was categorically great. That is a value judgement, and one everyone is free to diverge from. I agree with the first sentence. People are largely irrational, thus the 4 billion people believing in a magic man in the sky that made everything for their benefit. I also agree that our lives are largely determinded, by circumstances, and external forces, and of the things we do control, only 10% of our actions reach conscious awareness. It is true that most people live off of other creatures, but I'm a vegan. Stuff still dies as the result of my existence, though I am not living off of them, and nothing dies as a result of my will, or approval. Though that statement is also true of most people. My wants are pretty well satisfied. I could always deal with more, but I am not a type of person that is interested in being rich, or owning vastly more than everyone else. I am actually quite content with my current state of affairs. So it clearly isn't true of everyone. What about contemplatives that give up everything they own, and go live in a cave and claim to find peace and enlightenment? I don't feel worse after satifying my wants. I am normally stoaked that they can be satisfied at all. Maybe the expecting the future thing I do, but the future will someday be the precent, and it isn't as if I am waiting for some unspecified time in the future. I look forward to and await events that I know will actually occure at certain times in the future. So I will be enjoying them when they are the present. The last sentence of your post is so absurd it almost floors me. How can you even imagine that people suffer the most? (I hope you used sexist wording merely because you think it sounds cooler or something, though I think it should be avoided.) So you would rather be like a rabbit or something? What animal has a better life than us, and you wish you could trade with it? You think that all the stuff humanity has build to better our lives hasn't done just that? It has somehow made them worse? We would be better off without medical technology? Without transpertation? Without shelters and the safty from predators? Without readily available food to eat? Without entertainment? Without showers and tooth brushes? Unless you are one of those enigmatic individuals that somehow think that human beings are the only animals that can suffer, because we have magic souls or something (in which case I think you're insane)...then I think that last sentence was unexpressively wrong. Unless you can point to an animal that has it better than us, and you want to trade existences with, it will clearly seem like an unthoughtful assertion. I mean c'mon. Some rodent species are the primary food source in an area, and it's why each litter has like a dozen (once had a rat that gave birth to 17) the reason for this is that almost all of them will be eaten alive. Where is the population of humans being huntered and eaten alive? All the high mammals react the same way physically and psychologically to pain as humans do. There is absolutely no reason to think that they feel less pain than humans. Besides the fact that the thresholds of pain vary between human individuals as well. There is no more reason to think that they can feel less pain than us than to think that they feel more. It is at least clear that they react the same way we do, so it must be similar. All the weighing the good and bad aside, will you at least agree that your original assertion that "we live in the worst of all possible worlds" is wrong. You are free to go on thinking life sucks, that is your prerogative, but it isn't categorically so. Edited by Wosret on 04/22/08 - 11:20 PM
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Posted 04/23/08 - 04:35 AM:	#22
Schopenhauer was deluded by Buddhism. All that twaddle about suffering is like the First so-called Noble so-called Truth. It only makes sense in a religious context, that is to say, it doesn't make any sense at all.
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Lex
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Posted 04/23/08 - 07:34 AM:	#23
Wosret wrote: A world without the internet would be worse. A world without my favorite foods, or things like anime and manga would be worse. A world where life expectency is cut in half would be worse. A world where it hurt to breath the air, where all food tasted like shit. A world that had hotter summers and colder winters would be worse. A world where people were a little dumber, a little crueler, and a littler more violent would be worse. A world where it rained acid daily would be worse. A world with giant roaming predators would be worse. A world where the Nazi's won the war would be worse. A world that never come up with germ theory, that didn't invent labor saying devices. A world where women are uglier, a world where everyone is muslim. A world where country music was the only music. If you think this is the worst possible world, then you have an extremely limited imagination. This is simply ridiculous. Unless humans die, they adapt. If food tasted like shit, then people would always eat that and get used to it without ever knowing the difference. If it were colder, we would be a heck of a lot furrier (evolution). Nazis could never really win the war: even the fact that they got so far was somewhat of a cruel fluke. Your examples would not make the world worse, only more difficult to adapt to. Sure, the Earth could crash into the Sun and we would die. That does not make a world that is "worse". Now here is a better argument: "A world where people were a little dumber, a little crueler, and a littler more violent would be worse." Exactly. And I am saying that if people were a little dumber, a little crueler, and a little more violent, we would probably all go extinct as a race. Boom. Hence the argument that this is the worst possible world.

J.D.
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Posted 04/24/08 - 12:09 PM:	#24
Hmm, I tend to agree with Wosret though. We are a brute race with the potential to be boundlessly evil, but most people, of whom the media does not cover, choose not to be. Right now there's a decent balance between good and bad, but in another reality, we might have embraced our sinful tendencies, thus making this world worse. Imagine a world where gangs ruled the governments.
_____________________ "I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -René Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

Cafe Rob
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Posted 04/24/08 - 04:37 PM:	#25
"Wosret" wrote: The last sentence of your post is so absurd it almost floors me. How can you even imagine that people suffer the most? The significance or reason for this statement is tied to self-consciousness. At a certain point in the evolutionary process, consciousness arose. Prior to this time ‘life’ did not consciously know it existed. A cat cannot reflect upon itself, it acts instinctively. It does not live with the knowledge of its own mortality. The greater a person’s intellectual ability the greater the potential for suffering. People with a low intellect accept the world as it is, they have a minimal capacity for thought. (Ignorance is bliss) Others affected by the vicissitudes of life turn to religion for an answer. Those who cannot accept the idea of a God find their answers in philosophy. It’s not so much about thinking that life sucks but more about understanding why it sucks. We have the ability to rationalize it. If you know the reasons for things they never seem quite so bad. Take for example the 'Myth of Sisyphus' by Albert Camus, in this book Camus talks about Sisyphus and his sentance of having to continually roll a boulder up a steep hill and then to have it roll down again and so on. The conclusion is that although life seems fairly meaningless it’s still worth living. Imagine all the millions of people every day working in their boring factory jobs, in shops and offices, going through much the same routine day after day. They’re all leading a kind of Sisyphus existence in a way. But hey Worset, I’m no pessimist, honestly. During the course of any day there are generally a few enjoyable moments to relish. In terms of my earlier statement, that this is the ‘worst of all possible worlds.’ I think it’s relative to how you endeavour to live your life really. What you can make of it, I mean in trying to live according to your own nature rather than someone else’s. Edited by Cafe Rob on 04/24/08 - 04:46 PM

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