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Is there a Mathematical Proof that
I do not believe that it is true, so is there a proof?

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Is there a Mathematical Proof that

Hanover
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Posted 11/03/09 - 11:14 AM:	#11
James S Saint wrote: So you don't believe that "3+3+3+3" is the same as "4 * 3"? Or that the infinite sum, "3+3+3+3+3...+3", is the same as "infinity * 3"? I propose that you actually start adding this equation and let me know when you reach infinity as opposed to the fact that you're simply approaching it. Infinity is not a number and it cannot be represented as a variable when that variable is understood to represent a number. It's like asking for the solution of X+3 where X = a watermelon.
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Posted 11/03/09 - 12:24 PM:	#12
Infinity times zero equals zero if one is referring to Zero as a numerical value. However, infinity times zero equals infinity if you are referring to zero as the name for the numerical value, i.e., there are an unlimited number of "zero" names for zero but only one numerical value for zero.
thanatos

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Posted 11/03/09 - 03:10 PM:	#13
jsidelko wrote: Infinity times zero equals zero if one is referring to Zero as a numerical value. However, infinity times zero equals infinity if you are referring to zero as the name for the numerical value, i.e., there are an unlimited number of "zero" names for zero but only one numerical value for zero. No, "Infinity times zero" equals nothing. In standard mathematics, there is absolutely no meaning to the phrase. If someone wants to assign a meaning, they have to lay out exactly how they insert infinity in to the group or field in which they will be using multiplication.
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P Can you pass Religion 101?

Kwalish Kid
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Posted 11/03/09 - 03:14 PM:	#14
James S Saint wrote: So you don't believe that "3+3+3+3" is the same as "4 * 3"? Or that the infinite sum, "3+3+3+3+3...+3", is the same as "infinity * 3"? "infinity * 3" has no meaning. Even "3+3+3+3+3...+3" is undefined. An infinite sum in calculus is merely a different way of expressing a particular multiplication of infinity. It is used in relation to an infinitesimal delta, dx, so as to express the relative cardinality of the infinity being used. Are you using smooth analysis, some kind of non-archimedean analysis, or limits? What you have written makes no sense unless you provide some additional context.
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P Can you pass Religion 101?

Hanover
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Posted 11/03/09 - 04:46 PM:	#15
jsidelko wrote: Infinity times zero equals zero if one is referring to Zero as a numerical value. However, infinity times zero equals infinity if you are referring to zero as the name for the numerical value, i.e., there are an unlimited number of "zero" names for zero but only one numerical value for zero. Infinity is not a number. Where would you plot it on a number line?
"Nothing is impossible for the man who will not listen to reason." John Belushi, "Animal House" "I have opinions of my own --strong opinions-- but I don't always agree with them." G.W. Bush

James S Saint
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Posted 11/03/09 - 05:25 PM:	#16
It seems many of you are confusing "undefined" with "indeterminate". If an expression is not defined sufficiently it becomes indeterminate because there is not enough information to resolve a specific conclusion. We call that "indeterminacy". We call an expression "undefined" when we can't even figure out what the expression is supposed to represent, such as "0/0". "0/0" is saying, "How many portions of no size can I divide my nothing up into?" The question itself isn't making any sense. In the case of "0 * infinity", we at least know what is being asked, but we can't determine a solution without more information. It might be anything. Thus it is "Indeterminate".

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Posted 11/03/09 - 05:54 PM:	#17
James S Saint wrote: It seems many of you are confusing "undefined" with "indeterminate". If an expression is not defined sufficiently it becomes indeterminate because there is not enough information to resolve a specific conclusion. We call that "indeterminacy". No, it seems you are confusing what you are doing with mathematics. You are using strings of symbols that are literally undefined: they have no defined meaning. We call an expression "undefined" when we can't even figure out what the expression is supposed to represent, such as "0/0". "0/0" is saying, "How many portions of no size can I divide my nothing up into?" The question itself isn't making any sense. In the case of "0 * infinity", we at least know what is being asked, but we can't determine a solution without more information. It might be anything. Thus it is "Indeterminate". No, we do not know what is being asked. What does "infinity" stand for. Is it a number? What is the group that is being used here?
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P Can you pass Religion 101?

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Posted 11/04/09 - 12:46 AM:	#18
Perhaps, he meant "infinitesimal" as in infinitesimal calculus? The word means approaching zero but never reaching it, which is not the same as "infinity". I think this is a common confusion. Is the word "infinity" actually being used in math solutions? Perhaps, I am obsolete.

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Posted 11/04/09 - 01:57 AM:	#19
As defined in a dictionary, infinity is "the limit that a function f is said to approach at x=a when for x close to a, f(x) is larger than preassigned number". Not all philosophers of math accept this as intelligible or natural. Can you actually understand this? "When for x close to a"??

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Posted 11/04/09 - 02:08 AM:	#20
Kwalish Kid wrote: No, it seems you are confusing what you are doing with mathematics. You are using strings of symbols that are literally undefined: they have no defined meaning. No, we do not know what is being asked. What does "infinity" stand for. Is it a number? What is the group that is being used here? Well let's see; 1) I use "0". I'm sure you have a notion of what that means. 2) I used "infinity" and even though I'm sure you know what that means, you seem to want to deny it, so let me explain wht infinity means for you; The word "infinity" is the word we use to represent a unbound set numbers such as "all real numbers". Main Entry: in·fin·i·ty Pronunciation: \in-?fi-n?-t?\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural in·fin·i·ties Date: 14th century 1 a : the quality of being infinite b : unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity : boundlessness 2 : an indefinitely great number or amount <an infinity of stars> 3 a : the limit of the value of a function or variable when it tends to become numerically larger than any preassigned finite number b : a part of a geometric magnitude that lies beyond any part whose distance from a given reference position is finite <do parallel lines ever meet if they extend to infinity> c : a transfinite number (as aleph-null) 4 : a distance so great that the rays of light from a point source at that distance may be regarded as parallel 3) I used the symbol "" and again, I'm sure you actually know what that means, bur seem to want to argue that as well, so; "" means an arithmetic "times" or multiplication; Main Entry: mul·ti·pli·ca·tion Pronunciation: \?m?l-t?-pl?-?k?-sh?n\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English multiplicacioun, from Anglo-French multiplicacion, from Latin multiplication-, multiplicatio, from multiplicare to multiply Date: 14th century 1 : the act or process of multiplying : the state of being multiplied 2 a : a mathematical operation that at its simplest is an abbreviated process of adding an integer to itself a specified number of times and that is extended to other numbers in accordance with laws that are valid for integers b : any of various mathematical operations that are analogous in some way to multiplication of the real numbers but are defined for other or larger sets of elements (as complex numbers, vectors, matrices, or functions) Thus all in all, I have definitely said; "The boundless sum of 0 is indeterminate." I would think a mathematician would already know that without having to look up the words in the dictionary, but one can never tell.

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