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Is the truth really of value?

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Is the truth really of value?

Incision
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Posted 06/12/09 - 04:59 PM:	#11
A general thumbs-up to the previous responses. But sometimes, something may be more valuable than truth. Suppose a terrorist will set off bombs in three major cities unless you convert. And furthermore suppose you're already in contact with your country's intelligence agency, and know you will be rescued and deconverted shortly. True belief isn't most important here. At least I think that's true.

Mako
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Posted 06/12/09 - 07:04 PM:	#12
Incision wrote: A general thumbs-up to the previous responses. But sometimes, something may be more valuable than truth. Suppose a terrorist will set off bombs in three major cities unless you convert. And furthermore suppose you're already in contact with your country's intelligence agency, and know you will be rescued and deconverted shortly. True belief isn't most important here. At least I think that's true. It seems that the conversion here would be a mere formality. Under such circumstances, in what way could one say that one has truly converted if as you claim "True belief isn't most important here." One's role here would be more comparable to that of an illusionist who knows the truth behind the trick all along. Mako Edited by Mako on 06/12/09 - 07:15 PM
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Incision
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Posted 06/12/09 - 07:58 PM:	#13
There is a positive side to truth: mentioning it is unnecessary. If my girlfriend loves me then the statement "my girlfriend loves me" is true. So if I care whether my girlfriend loves me, then I ought to care whether the statement "my girlfriend loves me" is true. In general, P iff "P" is true, so if I care that P, then I ought to care that "P" is true. So we can let the formula reduce "should I care if 'I'm going to die' is true?" to "should I care if I'm going to die?" And you should, because dying is probably not in your interest. Mako wrote: Under such circumstances, in what way could one say that one has truly converted[. . .?] What I'm trying to imagine is someone who cares more about saving lives than about believing what's the case. Say the terrorist's belief is that Kant was perspicuous. At first, I believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous, but it's more important to save lives than to believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous. Then I come to believe that Kant was perspicuous, and it's more important to save lives than believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous. Finally, I'm unconverted, and my beliefs return to normal. I don't see a problem here; if you see one, let me know what you're thinking.

Dangerous Curves
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Posted 06/12/09 - 08:33 PM:	#14
cosscos wrote: Dangerous Curves, you mentioned of minimizing sufferings as value in the other thread. Is it possibly compatible with happiness in this thread? Well it definitely is a utilitarian principle, and I agree that to take small personal inconveniences to add up to greater happiness for everyone is definitely worth doing. I especially factor the minimize suffering maxim into considering whether or not to become a vegan, or at least try it. It does seem unnecessary to force an animal to die for my convenience, when I could get the vitamins, minerals, and proteins from other sources, without suffering. Overall, it would be an increase in happiness for all parties.
"She carries me through days of apathy. She washes over me. She saved my life in a manner of speaking when she gave me back the power to believe."

wuliheron
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Posted 06/12/09 - 08:37 PM:

#15

Incision wrote:
There is a positive side to truth: mentioning it is unnecessary. If my girlfriend loves me then the statement "my girlfriend loves me" is true. So if I care whether my girlfriend loves me, then I ought to care whether the statement "my girlfriend loves me" is true. In general, P iff "P" is true, so if I care that P, then I ought to care that "P" is true. So we can let the formula reduce "should I care if 'I'm going to die' is true?" to "should I care if I'm going to die?" And you should, because dying is probably not in your interest.

What I'm trying to imagine is someone who cares more about saving lives than about believing what's the case. Say the terrorist's belief is that Kant was perspicuous. At first, I believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous, but it's more important to save lives than to believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous. Then I come to believe that Kant was perspicuous, and it's more important to save lives than believe that Kant wasn't perspicuous. Finally, I'm unconverted, and my beliefs return to normal. I don't see a problem here; if you see one, let me know what you're thinking.

"Should" has more to do with logic than emotions, which are irrational by definition. Thus some people want to die, while others do not and two people can have the exact oposite emotional response to the same thing. For example, paranoidc people come up with all kinds of logical reasons to support their negative views. It is our emotions that give weight and motivation to our logic, not the other way around. We may struggle to be objective, but that is again because our emotions tell us this is important.

cosscos
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Posted 06/12/09 - 10:39 PM:	#16
Truth is value. Value is price, benefit, power, ability. Ability is humanity. Humanity is physis. Physis is nature. Nature is good, Good is godness. Godness is just. Just is laws. laws is freedom. Freedom is moral. Moral is morality. Morality is will. Will is act. Act is justification. Justification is truth.

linear_occurance
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Posted 06/12/09 - 11:59 PM:	#17
Your post is a little self-defeating no? It explains the importance of "truth" in and of itself. Humans have a need to know why. We have placed value upon truth because it explains this "why" factor. You must also understand that value is an entirely human invention, so aking if there is some transcendental value to something is a little absurd. And you dont have to accept strictly truth. Since value is a human invention, you can choose what to value, and what to accept. (Although if you know that you are choosing a falshood over a truth, I dont know why you would choose the falshood) Edited by linear_occurance on 06/13/09 - 12:08 AM

oag
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Posted 06/13/09 - 02:07 AM:	#18
mpoissant17 wrote: We hold truth to be this great value but why is it held to such a high standard? The short answer is because we say so and we make the rules. The less flippant answer is because it is practical to do so. We define truth as that which holds. When we agree that something is true we have something to work with. When we disagree about truth we tend to stagnate in argument. We can't control it. That isn't quite accurate. You are correct in that some things present themselves in such a fashion that our natural inclination is going to be to assign truth to it. It is true that the sun will appear above the horizon tomorrow and give us daylight hours. There really is no value in that truth per se. However, there is actual insanity in denying it is there not? It constantly brings us sadness and strife. That is a cynical view. I also think that you are misplacing the blame for sadness and strife. Life brings us those and life has no truth or falsehood it just is what it is. Tell my why something must be true for me to accept it. We all decide for ourselves what to accept so in effect everything you believe is true to you. In Boolean logic where true=1 and false=0 you can simply break it down. Something need only be a 1 to you. That means you accept it as true. If it is a 0 to you then you accept it as false. You can't know the objective truth or falseness of either so you do the best you can. Of course we aren't machines so we can have I don't know as well. We can have provisionally true beliefs. Humans need to know stuff. We need to have consistency, predictiveness, facts. We assign value to those things that represent this to us because it is practical and useful. Falsehood and deception can have utility as well but that might be a different discussion.

james1951
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Posted 06/13/09 - 04:48 AM:	#19
mpoissant17 wrote: Back in the day people used to believe that the earth was the center of the universe but since then Copernicus used scientific induction and calculations to determine that the earth in fact revolves around the sun proving that the geocentric theory was false. But just because heliocentricity is the truth doesn't mean that it is a better theory than geocentricity. We hold truth to be this great value but why is it held to such a high standered? We can't control it. It constantly brings us sadness and strife. So then why is the quality of being true a value. What really makes truth better than fallacy or reality better than illusion? Tell my why something must be true for me to accept it. While all we ever really have is our own perception of the truth, The closer we all come to the absolute truth the closer we come to understanding each other. Sure it doesn't matter if the earth is round or flat as we go about our daily lives, but it does matter if what I do is harming you. If we were to know and admit when we do harmful things, maybe we wouldn't do them as often and the world would be a better place.

james1951
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Posted 06/13/09 - 04:50 AM:	#20
Incision wrote: A general thumbs-up to the previous responses. But sometimes, something may be more valuable than truth. Suppose a terrorist will set off bombs in three major cities unless you convert. And furthermore suppose you're already in contact with your country's intelligence agency, and know you will be rescued and deconverted shortly. True belief isn't most important here. At least I think that's true. But what is the true reason the terrorist is going to set off those bombs? Is it because his rights have been violated his family and country have been harmed and he wants to stop the offenders or get revenge for the harm they have done to him?

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