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Is Atheism a form of Faith?
I've wondered when reading posts if for some atheists their stance is a faith

Is Atheism a form of Faith?

psychotick
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Posted 10/15/09 - 08:39 AM: Subject: Is Athiesm a form of Faith?	#1
Hi, No this is not a wind up - its a genuine question. From time to time as I've read posts in this and other forums about the heatedness of debates on religion and athiesm, and while I accept that there is probably wrong on both sides, I do wonder at some of it. I've had one poster, not on this forum, blatantly tell me that god does not exist because the bible and other religious books are only a few thousand years old. Others have proclaimed, quite possibly copying a well known evolutionary biologist, that evolutionary theory proves that god is redundant and probably doesn't exist. I find these statements to be remarkably lacking in logic, and in truth almost faith based, and the heat in some of these debates reminds me strongly of the anger that people feel when their cherished beliefs are attacked. But athiesm is supposed to be a denial of god and religion isn't it? Why the anger? Either way it leads me to the question I pose to you - is athiesm, (for some), a form of faith? I looked up faith on a couple of on line dictionaries and the applicable definitions are listed below. "faith (fth) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 6. A set of principles or beliefs. [Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fids; see bheidh- in Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved." "faith [fe??] n 1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence 6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs Archaic indeed; really (also in the phrases by my faith, in faith) [from Anglo-French feid, from Latin fid?s trust, confidence] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003" I think a case can be made based on these definitions that for some athiests their firmly held belief is actually a faith, i.e. it goes beyond the lack of proof for a god, and the arguments, just as for religious adherents, go beyond what can be proven or logically established. I think the key thing to answering this question is for an athiest which of these two statements he accepts as his stance: 1) I believe that there is no god. or 2) I do not believe that there is a god. I'm not sure whether these should be classed as weak athiesm and strong athiesm, I'm unclear on the definitions of weak and strong in this context, but I do say that if an athiest takes the first statement as a better reflection of his position, then he is going beyond what can be proven or shown in exactly the same way as a religious person is when he states that he believes there is a god. He is making a faith based argument. After that of course the next thing I have to wonder about, though not in this post, is whether it could actually be a religion. When does simple faith become a religion? When you throw in a lot of dogma? When you organise your beliefs into a set of teachings? When you have high priests and sacred texts? Of course there's always the question how do you worship something that you believe does not exist? Do you place something in its place, like science, and thus create your own modern day tower of Babel? Do you worship nothingness? Nihilism? Either way that's probably a debate for another day and a lot of alcohol. In the meantime I look forwards to hearing your (polite, reasoned) arguements for and against my opening question. Cheers.

rigelrover
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Posted 10/15/09 - 08:45 AM:	#2
Get ready for it...
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

Cheshire
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 10/15/09 - 09:08 AM:	#3
No, it isn't a faith. I think it is a provable fact that god is an abstract concept that is mistaken for a reality. Millions of people have believed in various Gods over thousands of years. It has obvious social purposes that help sustain various cultures and traditions. When I view religion; independent of a religion; there is no need for faith, because the truth of the matter is clearly supported by evidence. Added Support: When a culture disappears the gods of the culture also seem to disappear, therefore a god is the product of a culture and not a reality. Edited by Cheshire on 10/15/09 - 09:25 AM
Or not.

180 Proof
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 10/15/09 - 09:26 AM:	#4
psychotick wrote: No this is not a wind up ... Riiiiiight. Is Athiesm a form of Faith? No. There are sound reasons for being an atheist. But athiesm is supposed to be a denial of god and religion isn't it? No. Atheism is simply the negation, or rejection, of theism. There have always been, in fact, religiously observant atheists. Why the anger? Speaking for myself, there isn't any anger. I'm a happy infidel. I think the key thing to answering this question is for an athiest which of these two statements he accepts as his stance: 1) I believe that there is no god. or 2) I do not believe that there is a god. (1) is closer to my position. When does simple faith become a religion? When the so-called 'object of faith' is 'inexplicable', 'infallible' & 'totalitarian' it clearly belongs to (a) "religion". When you throw in a lot of dogma? When you organise your beliefs into a set of teachings? When you have high priests and sacred texts? Priestly (or apparatchik) paraphenalia are simply part of the theatrics. Of course there's always the question how do you worship something that you believe does not exist? People have done this for millenia, especially those who (are educated / cultured enough to) confess that their 'scriptures' are not literally true. Do you place something in its place, like science, and thus create your own modern day tower of Babel? I abstain from all 'religious' beliefs or commitments. Do you worship nothingness? I do not "worship" anything. Nihilism? Philosophical skepticism on even days. Pyrrhonian Spinozism on odd days. Edited by 180 Proof on 10/15/09 - 09:48 AM. Reason: Barking @ shadows again ...
The question isn't "Which explanations do I believe?" but rather "Which explanations do I least disbelieve?" Absence of evidence THAT MUST BE THERE (i.e. implied by any claim, concept, or (its) predicates, that affects changes in/to the world) entails evidence of absence. [What cannot be done?[What cannot be hoped?[What cannot be known?]]]

Wosret
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Posted 10/15/09 - 09:41 AM:	#5
Faithless. Edited by Wosret on 10/15/09 - 09:51 AM. Reason: Link wasn't working.
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

To Mega Therion
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Posted 10/15/09 - 10:09 AM:	#6
Oh dear God (criminally bad pun intended), here we go again. First of all, people tend to conflate atheism with not being religious. In the west at least most atheists (myself included) are also irreligious and vice versa, but the two are distinct stances. Atheism is a position that God doesn't exist (I would classify the so called 'weak atheists' as agnostics) and says nothing about a person's other beliefs; after all, Buddhists are atheists and religious. On the other hand, at least some who held that there is a God weren't religious, the deists and (probably; at least from what I know of the man) Hegel being two examples. That said, you were of course referring to the irreligious variety of atheists, and your argument that their beliefs are religious is deeply flawed. First of all, it is simply not true that the question of God's existence or inexistence is of a different kind than the existence of, for example, chairs, electrons, or the proverbial invisible pink unicorn. One needs electrons to describe the world; but I have yet to be convinced that one also needs a God or gods. I can't demonstrate conclusively that there are no gods, but neither could I conclusively demonstrate that phlogiston, kobolds or Michael Jackson don't exist. And the fact that a statement is believed doesn't make it religious in nature; otherwise my belief that I don't have a secret vault filled with gold would qualify as well. (Maybe all I need to do to become rich is change my religion?) As for when a belief qualifies as religious, I would say that a good criterion is whether or not it is believed without any evidence. It is amusing, though, to note a peculiar conceptual flaw with some of the religious: they simply can't believe that a man could live without worshipping or revering anything. Now, this may sound rude, but you seem to be such a person, with all the talk of the worship of science and towers of Babel and what now (though I must admit being a high priest of Lady Science would be awesome). What I can't even begin to understand is why. Why do you think we need to worship something?

Ghosthack
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Posted 10/15/09 - 10:10 AM:	#7
I do not believe that there is no God. My belief is not faith. I have sound reasons.

jsidelko
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Posted 10/15/09 - 10:18 AM:	#8
Yes, both theism and atheism are forms of faith. I believe atheism has the most logical and convincing arguments in support of its dogma. But, like theism it can't prove its position. However, the onus of proof lies with the theist because they are inserting God into existence.
thanatos

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Posted 10/15/09 - 10:21 AM:	#9
psychotick wrote: Of course there's always the question how do you worship something that you believe does not exist? If worship is associated with ritual, then one simply goes through the (sacred?) motions. One fakes it, or does it out of habit. I did, alas, for quite some time, seemingly worshipping Christ, and it would not surprise me if others do as well. I have a sentimental fondness for the church (Catholic) of my youth. Somehow, there was beauty mixed in with the images of souls roasting in eternally in hell, or temporarily in purgatory, and the lectures against sex, of any kind, when not associated with the production of more Canon (get it?) fodder. I loved the old latin mass, the music, the smell of incense, the history, the fact that the ceremony and vestments made it, in certain respects, a remnant or shadow of the Roman Empire. I'd probably still attend mass now and then if they followed the old rite relatively close to where I live, as an observer. There is indeed something very Roman about the view that the form of the rite is all important, not whether one actually believes in the God supposedly being placated. So, in a certain sense, one can be religious without believing in, let alone worshipping, God.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

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Posted 10/15/09 - 10:22 AM:	#10
Isn't it wonderful when people argue for their position instead of just stating it? EDIT: This was refering to the post above ciceronianus'. As for that post, wasn't it Joyce who said that it's a pity the Church insists on mixing Catholicism with Christianity? I kind of agree; the ritual itself would be fun if it wasn't for the obligatory belief in magical carpenter zombies.)

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