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Iran: preteen girls on death row
.. but must first be coerced, then raped, and can finally be executed

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Iran: preteen girls on death row
jorndoe
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Posted 08/30/09 - 06:02 PM:
Subject: Iran: preteen girls on death row 		quote post
#1
This one is particularly inhuman and deprived of civilized behaviour:
http://www.progressivepuppy.com/th...before-being-executed.html

As usual, religious laws provide a perfect pretext for atrocities, because "absolute justice" is deferred to imagined "higher powers".
It would appear that these "Sharia laws" is a blanket justification for just about anything, essentially regressing into moral nihilism (in lack of a better term).

Religion as such is not a moral guide, and deferring justice to unwarranted, unobservable, unprovable divinities, makes such guides equally unwarranted.
Ethics comes down to social consensus, and where a majority may oppress a minority, open free speech can be utilized to initialise societal changes.
Religiously motivated morals are fundamentally as arbitrary as anything else imagined, and that, in my opinion, is not an appropriate base of behaviour, as exemplified in the article.
I notice that more reasonable ethics appears to have little support from those theologians that refer to "common religion" as a naïve expression of "God".

Of course, in Iran, free speech is not generally accepted either, and by simply invoking "blasphemy" no further arguments are of any consequence.
A phrase such as "crime against religion" (contextual to the article) seems to have as much justifiable real content as "stealing from Santa".

Apologies in advance for my outburst; I merely thought making a statement in a highly visible spot was worthwhile.
People are to themselves what they think; people are to others what they do.
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Posted 08/30/09 - 06:40 PM:
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#2
Words fail me. sad

Is there no limit to our stupid cruelty?
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti

"Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys
swstephe
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Posted 08/30/09 - 08:32 PM:
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#3
The article seems to be on a campaign.

First, there is a slight exaggeration. The legal age for either gender is defined, under Sharia law, as the age of onset of puberty. On average, a year earlier for girls than boys. In the past, Iran tried to define that as the age of marriage, and had suggested 9 years old for girls and 13 years old for boys, but international outcry pressured them to change it to 14 for girls and 15 for boys. Maybe they are confusing the two age distinctions?

I can't find anything in sharia law where it would be illegal to execute a virgin. The best I could find was a hadith (statement) which mentions "flogging and banishment for a year" for virgins and "flogging and stoning" for non-virgins, but was more emphasizing a specific case, (of adultery).

The jailer couldn't marry the condemned without her consent and the consent and participation of her guardian, (wali). That would be true even of adult women. If the marriage were illegal, the jailer would be guilty of adultery and face the death penalty in Iran himself.

Then there is the issue of juveniles on death row. A lot of the articles in my research are quick to point out that Iran is the only country in the world that executes juveniles. Actually, China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Pakistan, and the USA have all executed juveniles in the past 10 years, (the USA finally declared it unconstitutional in 2005), and China still has many more. However, "juveniles" would refer to someone under legal age, but if Iranian legal age is much lower, they aren't juvenile by their own definition. Note, also, that Iran and Pakistan are the only Islamic countries, (operating under Sharia law), which allows this treatment, so it seems to be more a problem with those cultures, than Islam in general. It seems to be more a product of human nature in violent cultures.

I agree that any of these acts, if they are true, should be condemned. However, shouldn't these acts be condemned in general, rather than just focusing on a specific instance who happens to be a target of political campaign? Why not condemn juvenile offenders in general? Why not finally dispose of the death penalty in more modern states, like the USA, or "friends of the USA", like China and Saudi Arabia -- at the very least?
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.
DrifterOfTheSun
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Posted 08/31/09 - 12:51 AM:
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#4
It is not the religion, but the government the dogs they are, do not be naïve. Things like this happen everywhere, police officers rape little girls, rich people rape little girls, government rapes little girls Iran just does not hide behind the masks. Least they did not died in vain, for now all can see what animals we really are. Religion is not the answer, but blaming all on it is like blaming killing on knife rather than a killer. It is an excuse. Remember how Iliad starts?

Ps I am an atheist, and I believe there can be formed bettter religion around Atheism, but some people are just too much of an animals
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mway
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Posted 08/31/09 - 03:42 PM:
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#5

Who is in the wrong here I must ask? The young prison guard brought up in that world, simply doing all he knows? The religious leaders who enforce these kinds of acts; the same ones also brought up entirely in that world? The citizens of Iraq for not standing up for these minors, as they have also been brought up in that world?

Or us? The problem is education, and while we stand here not educating them, we are the ones essentially prolonging these actions. I don't think one should complain about a cultures decisions, but rather go there and try and make a difference if they are bothered.
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swstephe
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Posted 08/31/09 - 10:07 PM:
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#6
Just a note, the article is talking about Iran, not Iraq. I don't think you can solve the problem with just education. Iranians are actually very well educated in the middle class and higher, often at foreign institutions. There are a lot of political wounds from their past. They were oppressed under the tyrannical Shah of Iran (a monarch), the students and lower classes supported an overthrow of that ruler with religious leaders, (probably the only ones who would support them). The people are slowly crawling out under that government. When Ahmadenijad was first elected, there was a lot of hope that he would bring Iran back into secularism, but turned out to be a dissapointment. I think the more that Iran and its people are demonized and held under economic sanctions, the slower the progress forward and the resentment for being singled out. Remember that the Soviet Union was toppled by simply being exposed and more openness with the rest of the world. When are people going to realize the meaning of "you can get more ants with sugar than with vinegar". Remove sanctions, work with Iran economically and politically and the over-religious leadership loses their power. Why do you think they ban more and more influences from the outside world?
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.
ms anthropist
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Posted 09/01/09 - 02:00 AM:
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#7
I have a great idea, lets get the UK and the US to go there, blow everyone up, the jailers, the girls and a couple thousand more.

The article has no concrete evidence and it appears as no more than pre-war raging propaganda. I'd like more references in order to believe it.

thanks
DrifterOfTheSun
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Posted 09/01/09 - 03:52 AM:
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#8
swstephe wrote:
Just a note, the article is talking about Iran, not Iraq. I don't think you can solve the problem with just education. Iranians are actually very well educated in the middle class and higher, often at foreign institutions. There are a lot of political wounds from their past. They were oppressed under the tyrannical Shah of Iran (a monarch), the students and lower classes supported an overthrow of that ruler with religious leaders, (probably the only ones who would support them). The people are slowly crawling out under that government. When Ahmadenijad was first elected, there was a lot of hope that he would bring Iran back into secularism, but turned out to be a dissapointment. I think the more that Iran and its people are demonized and held under economic sanctions, the slower the progress forward and the resentment for being singled out. Remember that the Soviet Union was toppled by simply being exposed and more openness with the rest of the world. When are people going to realize the meaning of "you can get more ants with sugar than with vinegar". Remove sanctions, work with Iran economically and politically and the over-religious leadership loses their power. Why do you think they ban more and more influences from the outside world?


First of all why do they mix Iran and Iraq? Iran is Persia, Iraq is ,well was, part of India. And why does everyone thinks that Asians are stupid and uneducated?
Second, why does everyone thinks that former soviets hate soviet? Living in USSR was far more delightable than now (now everyone is bored to death). Only collection of books I hold is from 1937-1990 (It was hard to get them but they were, unlike now. Also people were really educated). Yes you could not be rich (Is that really that bad?) but you could not have been poor. people did not really wanted money. The reason of tremble of USSR was weak economics, in late 80’s people were starving (everything was cheep but stores were empty) so they had to end it. Now if someone asked me, I would gladly live in USSR. You could easily spend whole life on travel for free. And yes I come from former soviet country. And I know about the slaves, but they were only at the beginning and in the end.

ms anthropist wrote:
I have a great idea, lets get the UK and the US to go there, blow everyone up, the jailers, the girls and a couple thousand more.

The article has no concrete evidence and it appears as no more than pre-war raging propaganda. I'd like more references in order to believe it.

thanks


Agree, there are no other sources (from any other countries) It looks more like what russia was doing during 2008 war (fake futages, documents, American soldiers dancing with Georgian soldiers (in winter uniform douring August) etc. of Georgian attack, even Russian citizens did not believe in that)
Before starting an argument, do some research, it might be proven it is right/wrong
jorndoe
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Posted 09/01/09 - 07:51 AM:
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#9
Correct, I've also found it difficult to find independent corroboration, possibly due to suppression of free speech, or maybe it's all just lies, or maybe noone really cares.
However, death sentencing because of engaging in acts incompatible with chastity have been independently reported, which (along with various other corroborated events) makes the subject of the article plausible.
Given the level of inhumane treatment described in the article (if true), I think it's worthwhile some attention, as opposed to a simple dismissal by "no concrete evidence"; if this stuff actually do take place, I'm guessing such an attitude is not supported by the alleged victims (could they speak).
And, no, I don't think war is any solution (not sure if that's what mway is suggesting, but ms anthropist seems to believe that the article has warmongering as an ulterior motive).
I agree with swstephe's usual (virtual) voice of reason, though I also subscribe to education and information.

In this case the alleged offense is government sponsored, and cannot be subject to debate because the justification is the old all-in-one answer.
It's the same old repeating story - a fundamentally arbitrary and unwarranted means to decide how everyone else should live their lives and even think! (well, or die by the executioner's hand)
And that was the message I wanted to convey.
In general, I suppose you could accuse me of advocating secularization.
Oh, and add free speech to that (be it "heresy", "blasphemy" or not).
Let's be away with capital punishment (per swstephe post #3), terrorizing and murdering of kids, and overly biased indoctrination (per mway post #5).

Mehdi Karoubi wrote:
I do not think that prisoners in the pre-revolution regime (i.e. the Shah's) had seen or heard of such crimes

Maybe that saying is right after all - such amounts of "evil" takes religious devotion.
Note, I'm not anti-Islam or something of that nature; that would just be me telling others what to think and how to live their lives instead.
People are to themselves what they think; people are to others what they do.
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 ∑ 1/i² =  π²/6
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ms anthropist
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Posted 09/02/09 - 01:22 AM:
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#10
In First world war, in a bid to win American support, the Wilson administratin set up a special propaganda commission This was called the Creel Commission which "succeeded, within six months, in turning a pacifist population into a hysterical, war-mongering population that wanted to destroy everything German"(Chomsky, 1991:11). Some of the "news" disseminated with this purpose included "canivalism", specially that of "innocent sweet little kids".

I suggest that although the accusations made in this article are very powerful, we apply the maxim of "innocence until proven guilty", then we can proceed to investigate the issue, keeping in mind the socio-political dimensions which may have informed such allegations of systemic pedofilia, rape and torture upon Iranian society. This I believe are many, such as the current oil crissis, talks of invasion and general dissenchantment with the Iraq offensive. State Propaganda is not unusual, specially in this age of spectator democracy. I am not just dismising the information I am actually applying critical thinking to it.
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