Philosophy Forums


infelicity

PrintPrint


Page: 1 2

infelicity
Minyun
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 14, 2009

Total Topics: 17
Total Posts: 247
Posted 07/05/09 - 11:59 AM:
quote post
#11
Aye, you will tell me that "we are simply talking of infelicity's nature". To what end I ask? To find the truth? In the process you would have corrupted that very same truth.
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6303
Posted 07/05/09 - 02:35 PM:
quote post
#12
Kamerynn wrote:
I haven't read the piece by Austin; what would he say about (certain instances of) self-deception? Suppose someone proclaims that they're going to quit smoking (I'm not sure about them doing it "happily" but suppose they're determined and, for all intents and purposes, they have a positive outlook on that decision). Suppose they fail, as they often do. None the less, they truly believe that "this is the time," despite how many times that notion has failed them in the past.

A pleasure to hear from you.

Austin wanted to examine such instances, instead of pretending, as much of philosophy did, that statements were all that was important. But I am not sure that what you describe is actually a self-deception, if the person involved truly believes that this is the time. Self-deception involves one part of the self being convinced, while the other connives.


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6303
Posted 07/05/09 - 02:45 PM:
quote post
#13
unenlightened wrote:


I think in common parlance, I was lying. I said "X" knowing that "not-X". I declared an intent that I did not have. When I was a child, it was common to repudiate a promise 'because I had my fingers crossed'. A hidden gesture 'declares' the untruth of what is being said.

But it is not necessarily duplicity about which one is 'infelicitous'. If I were to say "he was crushed by his wife's death." I might freely admit that the corpse did not land on him from a great height, yet still claim that it was a true and meaningful statement.

Or try the infelicity of OCD - " I know I locked the front door... but I don't know that I did." One can be in two contradictory minds about something. One half must be false, but also both are true; we are not dealing with dishonesty here.

I think the whole thing becomes rather vague and complex in part because the identity of the speaker is itself something of a fiction - Just because sentences issue from the one mouth, one tends to imagine that they come from the same speaker.

That we are bound by our word is another metaphor - true only in the sense that we choose to behave 'as if' it were true - well, most of the time.


I like this.

I would note, though, that these infelicities gain their power from the "normal" felicitous application of the utterance.


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Banno
Old goat
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz

Total Topics: 111
Total Posts: 6303
Posted 07/05/09 - 02:50 PM:
quote post
#14
Minyun wrote:
This one is close to me, if you must, please forgive my passion.

Truth should be renamed belief.

If it were possible, that every human on the earth could believe the same thing, we would definately have found truth. Alas, we are individuals with our own ideas. I've often wondered what the solution to this 'truth' problem would be, generally when I am perplexed by such a problem as this (one without solutions) I assert that there really should not be any problem in the first place, for it is unsolvable.

It is like wondering what the problem with water is? When really there is no problem, we have just turned it into one. We cannot change the worlds people to our ways of thinking, but what we can do is accept this principle, that the truth in something is simply a belief. We are all believers in our own truths, but we are still primitive in the way that we let our beliefs/truths compete against each other, because we desire property in this universe, i.e. the more people that see things as I do will bring me more property of what is mine, it is fueled by greed. (we will say that this adversity inspires progress in our species, because this is the only way forward that we can see due to history) however I think there is a balance to made here, too much adversity and one could quickly start moving backwards on the progressive scale.

The problem is competition, it has provided well for millenia, in order that we are not just another species on this rock then we must indeed take it to the next level.

In my opinion Evolutions major goal is to work its way out of competition, much like the lotus lilly. Accept that your truths are simply beliefs, understand that there are others like you and love will flourish and those affected would have found truth. This is my understanding of this problem and a viable solution out of it.

I don't come here to compete in idle banter, I come here to tell you that it is killing us. The time fast approaches when governments philosophies will differ on something possibly as arbitrary as the 'truth', many lives will be lost, by then it will be too late. Examples of destructive argumentative behaviour on 'truth', are strewn on this forum if you care for evidence.

Changing the worlds attitude starts with you.

i don't believe this is truegrin


Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
Minyun
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 14, 2009

Total Topics: 17
Total Posts: 247
Posted 07/06/09 - 04:04 AM:
quote post
#15
i don't believe this is true


I accept your belief, as your belief, your truth. I hope one day you will be able to accept mine. Perhaps one day you can look past your individuality/greed and see the greater scheme of things. Perhaps one day you will see where all this non-sense gets you/us.

I will not convince you (all I can do is show you the path), you will convince yourself when the time is right, I hope it will not be too late by then. Enjoy your desire/want for division in your quest for truth while it lasts.
Kamerynn
Vetran Lurker
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 31, 2005

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 159
Posted 07/06/09 - 11:07 AM:
quote post
#16
Banno wrote:

A pleasure to hear from you.


Thank you! I'm participating a bit more, these days. smiling face

Banno wrote:
Austin wanted to examine such instances, instead of pretending, as much of philosophy did, that statements were all that was important. But I am not sure that what you describe is actually a self-deception, if the person involved truly believes that this is the time. Self-deception involves one part of the self being convinced, while the other connives.


To be honest, I'm not sure it's a good example either. "Self-deception" already has a rather large body of work surrounding it, mostly devoted to the problem of believing "p" at the same time as believing "~p." I suppose we could assume that the smoker knows, in the "back of her mind," that she will not succeed (so ignore the "truly believe" part of my last post or replace it with "both believes and doesn't believe," if you find that coherent). That might salvage the example, although, like I said, I'm not sure; self-deception is tricky business.

In any case, I've been meaning to read some Austin. I should go buy (or download) how to do things with words rather than simply trolling for reading material on the forums. sticking out tongue

When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
Download thread as

Page: 1 2



Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.