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incompatibility between human free will and omniscience of God

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incompatibility between human free will and omniscience of God

Moving Finger
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 07/04/04 - 12:20 AM:	#1
I need help to understand something please. If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision. If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance. If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient). The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will. Maybe I am misunderstanding something here - so I would be grateful if someone could explain (using a rational logical argument please). Thank you in advance. MF

P2P4EVA
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0 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 07/04/04 - 09:01 AM:	#2
they are only incompatible if you include exhaustive foreknowledge in the definition of omniscience.

Moving Finger
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Posted 07/04/04 - 10:51 AM:	#3
P2P4EVA wrote: they are only incompatible if you include exhaustive foreknowledge in the definition of omniscience. Omniscience to me means 100% knowledge of what will happen - ie knowledge of EVERYTHING that will happen. (If it is less than 100% then it is hardly omniscience is it?) Is this what you mean by "exhaustive foreknowledge"

Tripp2K3
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Posted 07/04/04 - 10:54 AM:	#4
What if god (and yes I am an aetheist) knows every possible action that you could take and all of it's consequences. If that was the case then you choose your path but god would be aware of what you could do, once again it depends on your definition. By the definaition you set it's either as I said or yet another contradiction in the definition and existence of god (but that is obviously another topic)
"Joyous distrust is a sign of health. Everything absolute belongs to pathology." Frederich Nietzsche

Moving Finger
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Posted 07/04/04 - 11:46 AM:	#5
Tripp2K3 wrote: What if god (and yes I am an aetheist) knows every possible action that you could take and all of it's consequences. Omniscience means not simply knowing every POSSIBLE action I COULD take - but in fact knowing every ACTUAL action I WILL take. Omniscience reduces possibilities to actualities - that is the whole point of omniscience. Tripp2K3 wrote: If that was the case then you choose your path but god would be aware of what you could do, No - God would be aware of what I WOULD do - not simply of what I COULD do. There is a world of difference. To explain again : It must be the case that either (a) God knows in advance what my choices will be - in which case I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance. or (b) I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - in which case he in fact cannot know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient). If the above is illogical or inconsistent can you please point out the error?

LostKeebler
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Posted 07/04/04 - 11:54 AM:	#6
I know of nothing that states that God MUST be omniscient.

Moving Finger
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Posted 07/04/04 - 12:27 PM:	#7
LostKeebler wrote: I know of nothing that states that God MUST be omniscient. OK. Good. And this is a possible solution to the contradiction. If God is NOT omniscient then humans can have free will and there is no contradiction. Is this the ONLY possible solution? (obviously another possible solution is the converse - that God is omniscient and that humans do NOT have free will - does anyone want to vote for this one?)

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0 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 07/04/04 - 12:52 PM:	#8
@Moving finger: You are actually presupposing that God's knowledge precedes my choice, which of course need not be true. God knows what I will choose, but my choice is first nonetheless - I am just not aware what my choice will be whereas He is, but my choice has been made of free will. You are in effect thinking that knowledge determines truth, not that truth determines knowledge - and I see that as kind of twisted thing to assume. Let's say that I have two choices, A and B. 1. I will choose A, and thus God as an omniscient being knows before the choice is made actual that I will choose A. 2. I will choose B, and thus God as an omniscient being knows before the choice is made actual that I will choose B. God knows what WILL happen, it is not that what God knows WILL happen (note which one comes first). Now you might be arguing that I cannot choose A when I am not even born yet. But then you will in effect deny that God is omniscient, because if He is, then time must be somehow accessible before it becomes actualized (thus the timeline is fully formed before from the beginning of time, and thus my free action that I will do in the future is already knowledgeable). Omniscience and free will CAN co-exist. They will not co-exist in all possible situations, but then you would have to make quite a lot of assumptions about the nature of time, the nature of freedom and knowledge and truth for starters. I can easily construct a situation where they co-exist, so there is no contradiction in omniscience and free will. There is another thread about this posted few days back where I have explained this more thoroughly (although not as compactly). EDIT: This post of course assumes that acts of free will are possible in the first place... ADDITION: One can think about this through possible worlds. If the choice is made by free will of mine, then it is contingent. In one possible world I choose A, and God will of course know that I will choose A. In another possible world I choose B, and God will know this. In each possible world God will know what my choice will be, but that does not make the act determined (because it is contingent, unless you can prove that in no possible world I will choose B instead of A, which is unprovable).
Philosophy is disciplined bewilderment. A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. http://www.beyondappearances.com

LostKeebler
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Posted 07/04/04 - 01:19 PM:	#9
God's omniscience and man's free will can co-exist in that God does not choose what we will do, he merely knows what we will do.

Moving Finger
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Posted 07/04/04 - 01:47 PM:	#10
LostKeebler wrote: God's omniscience and man's free will can co-exist in that God does not choose what we will do, he merely knows what we will do. sorry - but you have therefore not understood the question. I did not ask whether God "chooses" what we do or not. Let me explain again : either (a) God is omniscient and knows in advance what my choices will be - in which case I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance. or (b) I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - in which case he in fact cannot know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient). Either (a) or (b) above can be true - but they cannot both be true because this would be a logical contradiction. Therefore EITHER God is omniscient OR I have free will. But not both. If the above is illogical or inconsistent can you please point out the error?

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