If a tree falls in the forest: Philosophy Forums

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If a tree falls in the forest

Nihilism
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Posted 09/21/09 - 08:34 AM: Subject: If a tree falls in the forest	#1
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" I would like your thought on this, I have never tackled this question properly.
To criticize is only to establish that a concept vanishes when it is thrust into a new milieu, losing some of its components, or acquiring others that transform it. But those who criticize without creating, those who are content to defend the vanished concept without being able to give it the forces it needs to return to life, are the plague of philosophy. All those debaters and communicators are inspired by resentment. They speak only for themselves when they set empty generalizations against one another. Philosophy has a horror of discussions. It always has something else to do.

rigelrover
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:07 AM:	#2
*Sound* is a subjective phenomenon experienced by conscious agents. No agents => no sound. Furthermore, most (if not all) of our subjective experience is construed from relative empirical information collected from prior experience (whether immediately prior or relatively distantly prior); so if we are, in fact, aware that the tree has fallen in actuality and properly aware of the conditions that surround its falling, our experience with this awareness might suggest to us that a sound exists (even if we do not have 'direct' evidence) and that we hear subject to those conditions (though our biological hearing response might not have been triggered by sound waves, etc.)
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

Nihilism
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:12 AM:	#3
rigelrover wrote: *Sound* is a subjective phenomenon experienced by conscious agents. No agents => no sound. Furthermore, most (if not all) of our subjective experience is construed from relative empirical information collected from prior experience (whether immediately prior or relatively distantly prior); so if we are, in fact, aware that the tree has fallen in actuality and properly aware of the conditions that surround its falling, our experience with this awareness might suggest to us that a sound exists (even if we do not have 'direct' evidence) and that we hear subject to those conditions (though our biological hearing response might not have been triggered by sound waves, etc.) Your an Idealist basically then.
To criticize is only to establish that a concept vanishes when it is thrust into a new milieu, losing some of its components, or acquiring others that transform it. But those who criticize without creating, those who are content to defend the vanished concept without being able to give it the forces it needs to return to life, are the plague of philosophy. All those debaters and communicators are inspired by resentment. They speak only for themselves when they set empty generalizations against one another. Philosophy has a horror of discussions. It always has something else to do.

Makarismos
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:14 AM:	#4
The answer to the querstion entierly depends upon your definition of sound. Take these two for starters: 1) A vibration of air molecules. 2) The phenomena of a concious agent that senses the vibration of air molecules. If 1) then yes it makes a sound. If 2) then no, it does not. So in answer to your question: it depends.

rigelrover
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:14 AM:	#5
Nihilism wrote: Your an Idealist basically then. Do you mean vs. a realist?
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

Basso Profundo
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:19 AM:	#6
rigelrover wrote: *Sound* is a subjective phenomenon experienced by conscious agents. No agents => no sound.......(though our biological hearing response might not have been triggered by sound waves, etc.) Yep. Also... Pressure waves in the atmosphere will exist. If a tree falls in a vacuum, whether there is an "agent" or not, there will be no possibility of sound. If we can recognise how a biological process within the brain - perception of "sound" - can be reified, why the hell can't we do the same with all 'mental' processes such as perception, cognition, consciousness and conation (aka perceiving, 'thinking', awareness of these and willing)? Swim safe Fish
...and I lift my glass to the awful truth that you can't reveal to the innocent youth except to say it isn't worth a damn...

Nihilism
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Posted 09/21/09 - 09:24 AM:	#7
rigelrover wrote: Do you mean vs. a realist? Yes vs a realist
To criticize is only to establish that a concept vanishes when it is thrust into a new milieu, losing some of its components, or acquiring others that transform it. But those who criticize without creating, those who are content to defend the vanished concept without being able to give it the forces it needs to return to life, are the plague of philosophy. All those debaters and communicators are inspired by resentment. They speak only for themselves when they set empty generalizations against one another. Philosophy has a horror of discussions. It always has something else to do.

wuliheron
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 09/21/09 - 11:30 AM:	#8
Why don't you take a tape recorder into the forest and find out for yourself.

mutemaler
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Posted 09/21/09 - 11:33 AM:	#9
Nihilism wrote: "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" ... I think it's just their way of getting attention, and if you just ignore them they'll eventually shut up.

Nihilism
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Posted 09/21/09 - 12:36 PM:	#10
mutemaler wrote: I think it's just their way of getting attention, and if you just ignore them they'll eventually shut up. It was a general question? Why so aggressive.
To criticize is only to establish that a concept vanishes when it is thrust into a new milieu, losing some of its components, or acquiring others that transform it. But those who criticize without creating, those who are content to defend the vanished concept without being able to give it the forces it needs to return to life, are the plague of philosophy. All those debaters and communicators are inspired by resentment. They speak only for themselves when they set empty generalizations against one another. Philosophy has a horror of discussions. It always has something else to do.

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