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I hate America am I cool now guys?
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I hate America am I cool now guys?
cortes
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Posted 04/23/08 - 06:26 PM:

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swstephe wrote:
Meanwhile, the "America Lovers" club is the arm of suppression of the government. To allow it to defy the will of the people...

This is pure paranoia masquerading as argument. No facts in support, just a fertile imagination at work here.

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Posted 04/23/08 - 07:14 PM:
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BTW, for those interested in better understanding the paranoia of the American Left, here is a great book:

_Camelot and the Cultural Revolution: How the Assassination of John F. Kennedy Shattered American Liberalism_ by James Piereson

http://www.amazon.com/Camelot-Cultural-Revolution...

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Posted 04/23/08 - 07:15 PM:
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swstephe wrote:


That's "tu quoque"! The thing that we America haters love is that we have the right to call foul on our own government. Maybe some other country can wiretap its citizens, imprison them without charges or access to lawyers, torture POW's and deny access to Red Cross and get away with it, but as long as there are some people who can say that we won't stand for it, then we are *supposed* to be somehow better and different. It was once a beacon of hope for the rest of the world, that they could also overcome the corruption of their own countries, (without "becoming" another country). Now its like watching the hero of a Hollywood movie giving up and going home rather than saving the day.

Meanwhile, the "America Lovers" club is the arm of suppression of the government. To allow it to defy the will of the people it is supposed to be representing. Just recently, we finally got the episode where O'Reilly went on Oprah, (syndication is *really* slow out here). I found it painful to watch, not because of anything O'Reilly said -- I could understand where he was coming from -- but the most obvious flaw that the people in the audience was ignoring. He was, (in his book), labeling America lovers as "Traditionalists" and America haters as "secular progressives" or "SP's". I thought it would be a neat internet meme to set up a web-page honoring the America loving "Traditionalists" over history and the "good" they brought to the country. McCarthy's gang, who helped to define what it meant to be "American" and the gravity of having different opinions. All the Southern governors who fought for the tradition of segregation. The simpler days when the topic of the day was marriage between races and religions rather than gay marriage. Nobody in Oprah's audience seemed to notice that, had "traditionalism" been a noble position, there would be no Oprah's Show, (not that I like it that much).

I love property rights, freedom of expression, and many other of the essential freedoms as much as you do but just because I am not spitting rhetoric about how horrible america is (notice I have also not vehemently talked about how great america is either) doesn't meaning I want to suppress all opposition to the government. I just ask for some reasonableness like not calling the United States the statanicly possesed monster many make it out to be. I would never want to make a law to keep these people from expressing thier opinions I juyst really disagree.

Not to get off topic but I don't seem to understand where this whole allegiance to tradition comes from. I mean some people would slam their head against the wall if it was tradition. Oh and is that MST3K on the television?
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Posted 04/24/08 - 01:55 AM:
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cortes wrote:

This is pure paranoia masquerading as argument. No facts in support, just a fertile imagination at work here.


Really?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/20/america/20...

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Posted 04/24/08 - 07:00 AM:
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alliop wrote:
I love property rights, freedom of expression, and many other of the essential freedoms as much as you do but just because I am not spitting rhetoric about how horrible america is (notice I have also not vehemently talked about how great america is either) doesn't meaning I want to suppress all opposition to the government. I just ask for some reasonableness like not calling the United States the statanicly possesed monster many make it out to be. I would never want to make a law to keep these people from expressing thier opinions I juyst really disagree.

Not to get off topic but I don't seem to understand where this whole allegiance to tradition comes from. I mean some people would slam their head against the wall if it was tradition. Oh and is that MST3K on the television?


Who is calling America a "satanically possessed monster"? I think Chomsky would be quite happy if America just stopped interfering in 3rd world countries and setting up puppet dictatorships. He would probably go back to his linguistic studies. Michael Moore would seem to be happy if the working class got an even break from corrupt corporations. When people are getting shot, bombed, laid off and cheated isn't it reasonable to complain? The best I can guess about the "satanic" part is some of the statements from the Middle-East. Americans don't seem to understand that people in the Middle-East simply talk more dramatically than people in Europe and America, ("mother of all wars", "fleas of a thousand camels", etc). Traveling around there, I found that they love American stuff probably more than Americans. There were more McDonalds, Burger Kings, Baskin-Robbins, Fords and Chevy's, Macs and PCs, Hollywood blockbusters, American music and videos there than than local products. I guess Iraq doesn't have that much -- oh yeah, maybe 12 years of sanctions making it *illegal* to sell American stuff to Iraq and Iran might have something to do with that.

Yes, the image is from MST3K. Where I live, we only have 2 TV channels and nothing is ever on, so I download the series and its just about the only thing I watch.

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Posted 04/24/08 - 07:18 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
Really?http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/20/america/20...

Ooops, I forgot that argueing with an American-hater is "supression". American-haters have a God-given right not to be contradicted in public by contrary facts and opinion.

My bad.

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Posted 04/24/08 - 08:03 AM:
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cortes wrote:

Ooops, I forgot that argueing with an American-hater is "supression". American-haters have a God-given right not to be contradicted in public by contrary facts and opinion.

My bad.

Except that you don't actually argue or even produce contrary facts. Opinion, you've got in spades.

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Posted 04/24/08 - 08:04 AM:
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cortes wrote:

Ooops, I forgot that argueing with an American-hater is "supression". American-haters have a God-given right not to be contradicted in public by contrary facts and opinion.

My bad.


You're free to argue but you didn't offer any facts. Instead I took the time to provide an example of US govermental suppression of facts as reported in a reasonably good newspaper. There are plenty of facts pointing to the current administration's corruption and attempts at influencing public opinion by misrepresenting the facts.

It has rather little to do with hating or loving the US but more with critical and uncritical review of governmental policy and every shade in between. By any standard, European and American, liberal or conservative, the current administration is appaling without even having to go into people's predispositions towards "americanism".

The distinction between US-haters and US-lovers is basically a false dichotomy, because I assume all Americans would want to life in the "land of opportunity" and the "greatest country in the world". Some people prefer to live in that dream by ignoring reality others complain, still others go out and become active to make that dream a reality.

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Posted 04/24/08 - 08:20 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
You're free to argue but you didn't offer any facts. Instead I took the time to provide an example of US govermental suppression of facts as reported in a reasonably good newspaper. There are plenty of facts pointing to the current administration's corruption and attempts at influencing public opinion by misrepresenting the facts.

No, what you provided was an article about consultants on television at are allegdly on the Pentagon payroll. I think it is very illuminating that you really think that represents "suppression". (Never mind that fallacy that such people are representative of "American Lovers".)

Benkei wrote:
It has rather little to do with hating or loving the US but more with critical and uncritical review of governmental policy and every shade in between. By any standard, European and American, liberal or conservative, the current administration is appaling without even having to go into people's predispositions towards "americanism"

But this is a thread about American Haters. Hating America is nothing new as any student of history knows. American America-Haters have been around since America turned its nose up at Marx.

Benkei wrote:
The distinction between US-haters and US-lovers is basically a false dichotomy, because I assume all Americans would want to life in the "land of opportunity" and the "greatest country in the world". Some people prefer to live in that dream by ignoring reality others complain, still others go out and become active to make that dream a reality.

Well, you assume wrong. There are a good number of Americans who a) don't believe that America is or ever was a "land of opportunity" and b) who would prefer a land of equality modeled on Europe. These are the American America-haters. But they are such fragile creatures that they feel "suppressed" whenever they meet contrary facts and opinions.


Edited by cortes on 04/24/08 - 08:27 AM

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Posted 04/24/08 - 09:10 AM:
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No, what you provided was an article about consultants on television at are allegdly on the Pentagon payroll. I think it is very illuminating that you really think that represents "suppression".


Based on convincing evidence, like the testimony of these very same consultants. It's revealing that you do not take the time to look into any of the evidence and attempt to refute it on the basis of arguments, instead of offering another blanket denial. Let's not forget all the memo's, signing statements and ludicrous legal wrangling by the current administration. And if a government actively promotes false information to sway public opinion I call it suppression.

Suppression in the meaning as to withhold from disclosure or publication the truth or evidence.

But this is a thread about American Haters. Hating America is nothing new as any student of history knows. American America-Haters have been around since America turned its nose up at Marx.


Right. And of course we all have to conform to the definitions and words other people use. God forbid a little nuance.

a) don't believe that America is or ever was a "land of opportunity" and b) who would prefer a land of equality modeled on Europe. These are the American America-haters.


And here I thought the US was supposed to be a pluriform society that allowed for different opinions but if a US citizens want to have a European model (whatever that might be) in the US you're automatically unpatriotic and a US-hater. That's what's truly revealing.

But please, indulge me, provide me with evidence that rendition has not happened, torture was not committed by US officials in Abu Ghraib, the US government did not deliberately lie about the grounds for the Iraqi war, they have not and do not continually lie about the progress in Iraq and the time-frame of the surge. I'll promise I won't feel "suppressed" by any evidence you might cough up.

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Posted 04/24/08 - 09:40 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
Based on convincing evidence, like the testimony of these very same consultants. It's revealing that you do not take the time to look into any of the evidence and attempt to refute it on the basis of arguments, instead of offering another blanket denial. Let's not forget all the memo's, signing statements and ludicrous legal wrangling by the current administration. And if a government actively promotes false information to sway public opinion I call it suppression. Suppression in the meaning as to withhold from disclosure or publication the truth or evidence.

The claim under discssion was that America-Lovers were suppressing America-Haters. What you offer now is a claim that the government has suppressed the disclosure of information. Do try to stay focused on the subject.

Benkei wrote:
And here I thought the US was supposed to be a pluriform society that allowed for different opinions but if a US citizens want to have a European model (whatever that might be) in the US you're automatically unpatriotic and a US-hater. That's what's truly revealing.

Again, you are straying from the subject. There are those who gladly identify themselves as America-Haters. I am simply pointing to the commen thread that runs through such people.

I do not myself claim to be particularly patriotic; I am more an America-Hater-Hater than an America-Lover.

Benkei wrote:
But please, indulge me, provide me with evidence that rendition has not happened, torture was not committed by US officials in Abu Ghraib, the US government did not deliberately lie about the grounds for the Iraqi war, they have not and do not continually lie about the progress in Iraq and the time-frame of the surge. I'll promise I won't feel "suppressed" by any evidence you might cough up.

Quite the contrary, I am a big fan of rendition and torture of terrorists. I would only complain if they got the wrong guys.

I'm much too bored with the "Bush lied" debate to engage that here. I'm content to point out that whatever argument might be offered to the contrary, whether it be facts or opinion, whether it be correct or incorrect, no America-Haters are suppressed by it.

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Posted 04/25/08 - 03:14 AM:
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Cortes, I'd suggest you reread what the claim was: America-Lovers are the arm of suppression of the government.

Quite the contrary, I am a big fan of rendition and torture of terrorists. I would only complain if they got the wrong guys.


Yes, it's superfluous of you to say so. You have already adequately demonstrated that you masquerade "self-interest" as a source of ethics. Was it the Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged that gave you that luminous insight?

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Posted 04/25/08 - 07:14 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
Cortes, I'd suggest you reread what the claim was: America-Lovers are the arm of suppression of the government.


swstephe wrote:
Meanwhile, the "America Lovers" club is the arm of suppression of the government. To allow it to defy the will of the people...


This is a very broad claim designed to accuse "Amercia Lovers" in general with supressing "America Haters" in general.

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Posted 04/25/08 - 07:29 AM:
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I have noticed you prefer making sweeping generalisations and therefore tend to read them into everyone's posts but within the context of swstephe's post I doubt that was what he meant. And since I have such a radical different reading of the claim you'll have to ask him what he really meant.

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Posted 04/25/08 - 08:33 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
I have noticed you prefer making sweeping generalisations and therefore tend to read them into everyone's posts but within the context of swstephe's post I doubt that was what he meant. And since I have such a radical different reading of the claim you'll have to ask him what he really meant.

Let's let him explain what he meant. But your interpretation makes no sense.

And I propose this test: Randomly select 100 "America-Lovers" and then explain how they are suppressing in whatever sense that he explains his statement.

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Posted 04/25/08 - 01:37 PM:
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If he was making criticisms of America to lots of people, then he might get Dixie Chicked. wink

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Posted 04/26/08 - 01:55 AM:
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Crap! sad

If I say I love America, then I am called a propagandist.

If I say I hate America, then I am called a hypocrite.

The cookie cutter suburbs, carpool lane, high-price of gasoline, corn farms, fast food joints, high-rise prisons, high-sugar intake, diabetes, health insurance, etc.

Maybe many americans don't know what's going on in America. Have you thought about this? We don't know what's going on in America. I think the only time we get a glimpse of other Americans is during the election season, from where? From the The political ad campaigns. So, we say -- Huh? there is this place called.....ta daaaa...Indiana??!!

er, We shouldn't be self-hating Americans. We should listen to Nietzsche -- so, we messed up the Iraqi war, But, we got time to correct mistakes.

The worst is yet to come. The war mitigated something, I can't say it here for political reasons, but it did something.


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Posted 04/26/08 - 02:31 AM:
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Also, there's always what Eminem once said that I like in one of his songs: "I'm all for America, f**k the government."

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Posted 04/26/08 - 04:31 AM:
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What do you call those Americans who like to eat powdered donuts?

Cops.

Those Americans who put enough money in the parking meter?

Senior citizens.

Those Americans allowed to diagnose your child as having ADHD?

Grade school teachers.

sticking out tongue

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Posted 04/26/08 - 04:20 PM:
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A friend once emailed this to me, but I do not know who wrote it.

1. Only in America... can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.

2. Only in America... are there handicap parking places in front of a skating rink.

3. Only in America... do drugstores make the sick walk all the way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy cigarettes at the front.

4. Only in America... do people order double cheese burgers, large fries, and a diet coke.

5. Only in America... do banks leave both doors open and then chain the pens to the counters.

6. Only in America... do we leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage.

7. Only in America... do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we didn't want to talk to in the first place.

8. Only in America... do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight.

9. Only in America... do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.

10. Only in America... do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering.

11. Only in America... can a homeless combat veteran live in a cardboard box and a draft dodger live in the White House.


wink

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Posted 04/26/08 - 04:58 PM:
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Posted 04/26/08 - 08:25 PM:
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Yesterday, there was a major blackout in this country. That meant I had to read a book (gasp!) and picked up one by a famous America-hater, Noam Chomsky ... and there was passage in his book "Hegemony or Survival" about this very subject:

Noam Chomsky wrote:
Kagan's concept of "anti-Americanism," while conventional also merits reflection. In such pronouncements, the term anti-American and its variants ("hating America," and the like) are regularly employed to defame critics of state policy who may admire and respect the country, its culture, and its achievements, indeed think it is the greatest place on earth. Nevertheless, they "hate America" and are "anti-American" on the tacit assumption that the society and its people are to be identified with state power. This usage is drawn directly from the lexicon of totalitarianism. In the former Russian empire, dissidents were guilty of "anti-Sovietism." Perhaps critics of Brazil's military dictatorship were labeled "anti-Brazilian." Among people with some commitment to freedom and democracy, such attitudes are inconceivable. It would only arouse ridicule in Rome or Milan if a critic of Berlusconi's policies were condemned as "anti-Italian," though perhaps it would have passed in Mussolini's day.


The implication is that such labels tend to aid fascism. I guess I should re-address my previous point -- when I say that someone who uses the phrase is an arm of an oppressive state, I didn't mean that the state was telling people to call them that in any way. Instead, it is the people freely transferring the authority for the course of the entire nation to the state our of a sense of patriotic duty. Perhaps this position is used as a counter-balance to the total demonization of certain political opponents. When many Americans talk about Iran or even France, they see red and assume that the will of the state/religious authority is necessarily the will of the people and universally hate everything related to the name. It was the "America lovers" who decided to hate France to such a point as to start using the term "Freedom Fries", (on something not even French. Why do *those* Americans *claim* to hate France and everything connected to it, rather than just the decision of their leaders or policy? Now we have to go through the hypocricy of "hating China", despite founding our entire economic structure on their cheap producee, (by communists, no less).

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Posted 04/26/08 - 09:01 PM:
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swstephe wrote:
Yesterday, there was a major blackout in this country. That meant I had to read a book (gasp!) and picked up one by a famous America-hater, Noam Chomsky ... and there was passage in his book "Hegemony or Survival" about this very subject:

Anyone who yearns for the '60s and quotes Noam Chomsky fits the pattern I've seen pretty closely. I think I got a picture of you now. Remember, though, if you get caught with pot over there its the death penalty.

[size="1" wrote:
Noam Chomsky[/size]
]Kagan's concept of "anti-Americanism," while conventional also merits reflection. In such pronouncements, the term anti-American and its variants ("hating America," and the like) are regularly employed to defame critics of state policy who may admire and respect the country, its culture, and its achievements, indeed think it is the greatest place on earth. Nevertheless, they "hate America" and are "anti-American" on the tacit assumption that the society and its people are to be identified with state power. This usage is drawn directly from the lexicon of totalitarianism. In the former Russian empire, dissidents were guilty of "anti-Sovietism." Perhaps critics of Brazil's military dictatorship were labeled "anti-Brazilian." Among people with some commitment to freedom and democracy, such attitudes are inconceivable. It would only arouse ridicule in Rome or Milan if a critic of Berlusconi's policies were condemned as "anti-Italian," though perhaps it would have passed in Mussolini's day.

Chomsky is the classic example of someone who gets famous by broadcasting to the world that his freedom of speech is being supressed by his enemies.

The first question we ought to ask is what is the nature of people who describe themselves as America-haters? And there are plenty. Then we can ask are there others who are less forthright about admitting that they hate America. Would, say, someone who roots for America to be defeated in war be fairly termed an America-hater even he avoids so labeling himself? And there are plenty of those too.

So Chomsky does raise a legitimate question here: what does the term mean? Is it meaningless? Or is it a useful label? What is America? A state? A culture? A people? A place?

To repeat my observation, what I have noticed is that those who call themselves America-Haters and those who root for America to be defeated in war want America to be more like Europe. It is not simply random criticisms of American policy. And those who say they love America tend to prefer that America be less like Europe.

(As for the claim that the term "anti-American" is drawn from totalitarianism, the concept of treason is as old as civilization.)

swstephe wrote:
The implication is that such labels tend to aid fascism. I guess I should re-address my previous point -- when I say that someone who uses the phrase is an arm of an oppressive state, I didn't mean that the state was telling people to call them that in any way. Instead, it is the people freely transferring the authority for the course of the entire nation to the state our of a sense of patriotic duty.

This is at leat not as absurd a claim but it is still factually incorrect. In fact, the truth is more opposite.

What distinguishes America from Europe is that America is less totalitarian. America-Lovers generally love this fact. They want lower taxes, less regulation, more freedom, etc. What they tend to "transfer" to the state is the "authority" to make war to preserve this and other benefits of being American. Interestingly, this was the original concept of the US Constitution, that the Federal Government should be primarily concerned with foreign matters and that the states should handle domestic matters. That is not the European model, though, and that is not what America-haters want.

BTW, the most fascist presidents in American history have been Democrats most notably Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

swstephe wrote:
Perhaps this position is used as a counter-balance to the total demonization of certain political opponents. When many Americans talk about Iran or even France, they see red and assume that the will of the state/religious authority is necessarily the will of the people and universally hate everything related to the name. It was the "America lovers" who decided to hate France to such a point as to start using the term "Freedom Fries", (on something not even French. Why do *those* Americans *claim* to hate France and everything connected to it, rather than just the decision of their leaders or policy? Now we have to go through the hypocricy of "hating China", despite founding our entire economic structure on their cheap producee, (by communists, no less).

It is true that Americans have made an official sport of hating the French. But why is this? Because from the French Revolution forward the French have come to symbolize that which is most unAmerican. If America-Haters love Europe it is France and French intellecutalism that is almost always at the center of their love. (But note too that hating the French is an Anglo tradition stretching back to the time when England and France were rival powers.)

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Tobias
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Posted 04/27/08 - 04:41 AM:
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The first question we ought to ask is what is the nature of people who describe themselves as America-haters? And there are plenty. Then we can ask are there others who are less forthright about admitting that they hate America. Would, say, someone who roots for America to be defeated in war be fairly termed an America-hater even he avoids so labeling himself? And there are plenty of those too.


Hey that is rich, even if I don't call myself an America hater, than I am a de facto America hater if I would wish America loses in some war. Which war? Any war. This alone reveals your totalitarian collors, because no matter what war is being fought, I hate a country in this case the US when I wish for it to lose the war. It is also of course utter nonsense. I like Argentina as a country. Argentina lost the falkland war and this ended the military regime there which killed scores of people it considered a threat. A military junta which waged a dirty war on its people. Yes, a highly capitalist regime so you might applaud it, but that is another question. Anyway, Argentina losing the war ended one of the most brutal regimes in the region. Does it make sense to call someone an anti argentine if he or she would have wanted argentina to lose because it woud oust the military? Of course not.

What distinguishes America from Europe is that America is less totalitarian. America-Lovers generally love this fact. They want lower taxes, less regulation, more freedom, etc. What they tend to "transfer" to the state is the "authority" to make war to preserve this and other benefits of being American. Interestingly, this was the original concept of the US Constitution, that the Federal Government should be primarily concerned with foreign matters and that the states should handle domestic matters. That is not the European model, though, and that is not what America-haters want.


You equate totalitarianism with curtailing contractual freedom and tax regulations. This alone doesn't make a state totalitarian though. A totalitarian state sees itself as absolute and first and foremost feels that the freedom of its citizens is bounded by its allegiance of the state. A totalitarian state controls the ideas which are prevalent in the state and demands conformity of its citizens to the goals and ideals set by it. There are no totalitarian states in Europe at the moment. Simply because no European state demands conformity from its civilians beyond what is written in the criminal code, it doesn't curtail economic freedom in a totalitarian way, rather its policies are aimed at increasing freedom for all and it doesn't demand allegiance to its politics and goals and neither do they see themselves as absolutes.

The US is tending towards more totalitarianism, despite being econimically highly capitalist. The state demands allegiance from its citizens and even the rest of the world "Who isn't for us is against us". It monitors the ideas of its people through comprehensive internal wire tapping programs. It demands knowledge of its citizens whereabouts Europeans would find in general excessive. It demands, like you do, that we support troops in war no matter what. It violates international las, which is another sighn it feels it is above the law, an 'absolute'. It feels free to use torture in measures of 'state security' and allows the president the final say of such measures. It controls the ideas of the public through propaganda, see Benkei's article and see movies like Black Hawk Down and Rules of Engagement' which are made with Pentagon money and influence. The vocabulary used in politics and in the camp of what you refer to as "America lovers" is totalitarian, namely "homeland security", "Anti American" as Chomsky notes and your own comment about the French symbolising everything that is "un American". Especially the last one is totalitarian speak because it seems to essentialise some sense of what being "American" is. This conservative essentalist outlook on what an American is, or a German for instance is the hallmark of totalitarianism.

Can it be Cortes that some people who disagree with US politics, might wish for the US to abide by notions such as international law? Perhaps they would prefer a non essentialist notion of what being American is? Perhaps they feel the US shouldn't go to war as often as it does. Perhaps they feel that there is a current social climate which they want to change? What you do is totalitarian, America vs Europe, as if there is an essence of Europe and an essence of America. I feel in Europe there is a strain of racism which is very hard to beat and which most Europeans aren't even aware of but is still there. No one is his right mind would want the US to embrace this. Perhaps some Americans feel there are good notions coming from Europe and would like to incorporate those, but would leave others aside. Why is that anti American, or America hating?

I wish Europe would be more like America on a number of scores, does this make me an anti European?

Disclaimer: The author of this post desn't consider himself an anti American or an anti European, neither anti Asian or anti African for that matter. Neither is he "proud of being Dutch", as a recent political party here is called, totalitarian trends are everywhere. He further attests and made sure no Americans were hurt in the writing of this post.

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Posted 04/27/08 - 07:18 AM:
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Tobias wrote:
Hey that is rich, even if I don't call myself an America hater, than I am a de facto America hater if I would wish America loses in some war. Which war? Any war. This alone reveals your totalitarian collors, because no matter what war is being fought, I hate a country in this case the US when I wish for it to lose the war. It is also of course utter nonsense. I like Argentina as a country. Argentina lost the falkland war and this ended the military regime there which killed scores of people it considered a threat. A military junta which waged a dirty war on its people. Yes, a highly capitalist regime so you might applaud it, but that is another question. Anyway, Argentina losing the war ended one of the most brutal regimes in the region. Does it make sense to call someone an anti argentine if he or she would have wanted argentina to lose because it woud oust the military? Of course not.


I think in my first post I made a distinction between America-Haters and complainers. I said that we all complain about something. I complain about high taxes and regulation.

So first note the title of this thread, this is a thread about America-Haters, about people who think they are cool because they hate America. Now, all of the sudden, everyone is trying to pretend that nobody really hates America. Then argue with the OP!

Tobias wrote:
Totalitarianism with curtailing contractual freedom and tax regulations. This alone doesn't make a state totalitarian though. A totalitarian state sees itself as absolute and first and foremost feels that the freedom of its citizens is bounded by its allegiance of the state. A totalitarian state controls the ideas which are prevalent in the state and demands conformity of its citizens to the goals and ideals set by it. There are no totalitarian states in Europe at the moment.

Well, you did have to add "at the moment" didn't you? Why is that? ("I'm not a murderer at the moment," Hitler said as he chugged down his beer.)

Beyond that, you correctly identify what totalitarianism is and then you deny Europe is at the extereme of it. But what I said was that America is less totalitarian than Europe. The typical American is less concerned with the state than the typical European. (Yes, we are all quite annoyed at airport security.) On issue after issue, Americans are more self-reliant than Europeans who prefer to solve problems through the state. Is that in doubt?

Tobias wrote:
Can it be Cortes that some people who disagree with US politics, might wish for the US to abide by notions such as international law?

Indeed, and many Americans prefer that Amreican foreign policy be set in the United Nations precisely because they don't trust their fellow Americans. The whole point of appealing to International Law is to stop Americans from being American. Otherwise it would be sufficient to appeal to American law. There are those who prefer that Europe or the United Nations dictate American behavior and there are others who prefer that Americans determine it.

Tobias wrote:
Perhaps they would prefer a non essentialist notion of what being American is? Perhaps they feel the US shouldn't go to war as often as it does. Perhaps they feel that there is a current social climate which they want to change? What you do is totalitarian, America vs Europe, as if there is an essence of Europe and an essence of America.

Now you are arguing that there are no American ideals and no European ideals, no "essense" to either, only "social climate". What rubbish. What ever happend to the concept of culture?

Yes, I completely agree that some people feel that they wish to change the "current social climate", e.g. that the US shouldn't go to war as often as it does.

The question is what is the direction that such people wish to move the "social climate"? Is it merely less war? No. What I noted from the start is that people who describe themselves as America-Haters (or who root for America to lose in wars) are generally the same people who want America to be more like Europe, i.e. higher taxes and more regulation...more totalitarian.

Tobias wrote:
I feel in Europe there is a strain of racism which is very hard to beat and which most Europeans aren't even aware of but is still there. No one is his right mind would want the US to embrace this. Perhaps some Americans feel there are good notions coming from Europe and would like to incorporate those, but would leave others aside. Why is that anti American, or America hating?

This not the European ideal to which America-Haters are appealing. They are appealing, rather, to the centrality of government in Europe. To its totalitarian ideals.

Here is a simple test of my theory: next time you hear an American trying to be cool by saying he hates America or that he wishes America would lose some war, as him if he thinks America should have higher taxes. Ask him if it should offer more welfare programs. Ask him if he thinks Americe needs more gun control and more government oversight of corporations. I'm willing to bet you will get a yes on all points.

Am I wrong? Nobody has yet contradicted my original thesis.

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