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How did DNA evolve?
Evolution assumes DNA exists, but as yet no account has been provided as to how

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How did DNA evolve?
Wosret
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Posted 10/08/09 - 06:08 AM:
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#21
swstephe wrote:
Actually, DNA is pretty universally accepted to correlate to phenotype, (even hard-core creationists realize this). Therefore the phenotype of fossils is strong evidence for variations in DNA. DNA can be considered the media for transmission of phenotype to offspring. Looking at DNA between similar species is more confirmation. Of course, the other way of looking at the situation is that phenotypes are the media for transmission, (success or failure), of DNA evolution. So unsuccessful physical structures are eliminated from DNA more so than species evolution independently.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotype-phenotype_distinction

"An organism's genotype is a major (the largest by far for morphology) influencing factor in the development of its phenotype, but it is not the only one. Even two organisms with identical genotypes normally differ in their phenotypes." -- Wikipedia.

This is what I've said. You seem to have misread me, as I never said anything that disagrees with the above.

Also see Phenotypic plasticity.

Edited by Wosret on 10/08/09 - 06:17 AM

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Wosret
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Posted 10/08/09 - 07:00 AM:
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jeeprs wrote:


once it exists. The question is, how the DNA emerges from the 'sunlight pond' - how did DNA come about in the first place? How did it evolve? Did it evolve? How did all the pre-cursor chemicals 'adapt'? How can anything 'adapt' if it is not alive in the first place, and if it does not adapt, how does it evolve?


Evolution in the true Darwinian sense doesn't occur until there are subjects of natural selection. So, Darwinism comes a little bit later. First comes molecule-choreography. They have been able to show how ribonucleotides can assemble themselves into RNA for awhile now, but could not synthesize the ribonucleotides required -- until a couple of months ago in a Manchester Lab. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

We already knew that DNA evolved from RNA, and now we know where RNA came from -- we have just squared that circle, and being as it only happened recently, I am still feeling the thrills every time I get to tell someone like you. sticking out tongue

As regards form: I don't think 'form' implies a cookie-cutter type of morphology. I think it is much more subtle than that. The example of lions was given. Of course all lions are individuals, but not only are the recognisable as lions, they are also recognisable as felines. In fact if you wanted a better example of a Platonic form than a cat, you would be pretty hard-pressed to find it.


Huh? Firstly, animals bare resemblances for (usually) hereditary reasons, and even subfamilies like felinae (of which lions are not a member -- despite what your mad recognition skillz may tell you. They're of the subfamily pantherinae. The entire family is felidae, and a member of this family is known as a felid.) don't last forever, they are also subject to change.

Secondly, which cat sits on the pedestal? The house cat?

Incidentally, I am not a 'God-botherer' or a confirmed Christian (I will own up to being a cultural Christian). My problems with the neo-darwinist account of creation - I use that word intentionally - is that it is not philosophically coherent. There is no real account of the nature of cause. I will give an example. The current depiction of 'purpose' or 'intention' are such that these are really only understandable as characteristics of the human intelligence. Yet the human intelligence itself is purported to have evolved in the absence of any such thing as 'purpose' or 'intention'. Scientists such as Dawkins seem at great pains to argue that 'purpose' is an artefact of human consciousness, nothing else. But if that is the case, then the purpose actually has no purpose. It has only evolved by chance, presumably as an adaption, and not reflecting anything in reality, which is basically chaotic and dead.


I have no idea what you're talking about, but I will point out your false dichotomy. Life didn't evolve by purpose, nor chance, it was a selective process. You know... "natural selection".

Also, how can you not be a god-botherer, and hold that intention is necessary? Whose intention? If you think that intention doesn't have to come from a conscious agent, then you are merely having a semantic disagreement here.





Edited by Wosret on 10/08/09 - 08:36 AM. Reason: Fun, fun, silly, willy.

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jeeprs
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Posted 10/08/09 - 03:18 PM:
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#23

Nothing to forgive, thanks all for a very thought-provoking response, I shall go and ponder some more.


Edited by jeeprs on 10/08/09 - 03:28 PM
jeeprs
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Posted 10/08/09 - 11:37 PM:
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actually a few more comments. The dichotomy I am seeing is not between creationism and evolution but between purposelessness and teleology. It is related, but not the same.

'Evolution does not progress by chance but by selection'.

But as I understand it, mutations occur by chance; those that are adaptive tend to proliferate, those that are not adaptive, or destructive (the majority of changes) don't proliferate. So in that sense chance is a main driver of evolution. Jacques Monod put it as 'chance and necessity' - things come about by chance, but then there are inevitable consequences. The idea that purposeful changes occur is lamarckism, it it not? So that purpose, in this sense, is ruled out by evolutionary theory as we understand it. As are any ideas of teleology, things happening for a purpose other than the adaptive benefit that they provide.

But what of the idea that at some level, there is a tendency for particular types of thing to happen, so that they are lawful, even if they are, in another sense, random? So that, given a set of circumstances, some specific outcomes are likely. When you look at the complexities of organic chemistry, as remarked previously, there are hundreds of billions of ways for the same basic molecules to combine that are not going to culiminate in any kind of adaptive behaviours (therefore life). As it happens those that have favoured life have come about (obviously, otherwise we would not be having this dialog.) Now how could you prove, or disprove, an hypothesis about whether things are inclined to happen one way or another? Ideally, you would look for a world system which appeared to have 'all the ingredients' but was nonetheless barren. We are obviously not in a position to have that.

Yet I hear an echo of the whole anthropic principle in this situation. Again I find myself asking, this idea of randomness, or of chance, is being given an awful lot of responsibility in this picture. Now as you have already pointed out, my knowledge of biology is pretty minimal, but I still think this is a valid philosophical question. I have read quite a bit of Richard Dawkins, there are many areas where I would never consider arguing against him, but in terms of this specific question - the nature of the role of chance and consequent adaptive behaviours in the evolution of life - I think there are major questions.

I found in an article related to that Wired article that was quoted above:


"a growing number of scientists do say that neo-Darwinian evolution doesn’t explain certain jumps in biological complexity: from single-celled to multicellular organisms, from single organisms to entire communities.

The jumps — saltations, in complexity parlance — appear to be non-linear emergent phenomena, the result of networked interactions that produce self-organization at ever higher levels. From this perspective, Darwinian evolution is a mechanism of a higher universal law, perhaps even a variant on the second law of thermodynamics."

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/complexity-theo/

swstephe
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Posted 10/09/09 - 12:09 AM:
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#25
I was responding to the lack of evidence due to having fossils for organisms but not DNA. The phenotype, (fossil), is mostly influenced by DNA, and vice-versa, so DNA would be expected to follow phenotypes.

The creationist likes to talk about "chance", which is a misunderstanding of several different factors. Genetic mutations are fairly rare. The more important factor is simple genetic variation in the population. The number of contradicting recessive and dominant genes. That is how you can select a group of carp and get goldfish or a group of wolves and get chihuahuas and great danes. There is enough variation already in the species that certain attributes can be selected according to whatever pressures are in the environment. Evolution would probably never have gotten off the ground if it had to wait for a lucky mutation that gave one individual an advantage over all the rest.

Don't look at DNA as billions of molecules. It is a interrelated system of information, and doesn't exist in a vacuum, it reflects the environment very strongly. There may be similar phenotypes in species that evolved arrived in an environment already long separated by evolution.

Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.
jeeprs
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Posted 10/09/09 - 01:11 AM:
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Simply because the creation of humans was not a goal does not mean that humans cannot have their own goals.


Yes - but the point is, those goals are purely your own. If there is no intentional relationship between the cosmos and the human being, all goals are merely matters of subjective opinion, of what 'you' think is important. None of them are anchored in anything. None of them have any truth other than your opinion; so you end up with moral relativism. Take out the whole judeo-christian ethos, and all the philosophy and values associated with it - in fact, the spiritual basis of Western culture - and you end up with a purposeless universe. So humans can have their own goals in a purposeless universe, but they don't mean anything. Albert Camus saw this very clearly. So your own goal is just an own-goal. Kick it to your heart's content, but it means nothing other than whatever you can make it mean. (And you yourself might be able to make it mean a lot. I am not making a personal observation in saying this - it is nevertheless a valid general observation.)

The creationist likes to talk about "chance", which is a misunderstanding of several different factors


I am not a creationist, but I have spiritual beliefs.

Dawkins will say "chance is nonsense. What is important is adaption - a lion will be a better hunter, a mole a better digger, whatever it is - higher, faster, whatever. But there is nothing guiding the process except for survival." So the process is guided by survival - no disputing that. But I might ask the question 'but what is the purpose of surviving?'. You might say that this is a meaningless question, nevertheless many people find it an impossible one to answer, and this has real consequences. One thing is for sure, it is not a scientific question, but a spiritual or philosophical one. Science will simply assume that survival is an aim, it won't ask the question 'why survive?' which is exactly why evolutionary and genetic theory ought not to try and take the place of spiritual or religious philosophy.
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Posted 10/09/09 - 03:04 AM:
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jeeprs wrote:
But I might ask the question 'but what is the purpose of surviving?'. You might say that this is a meaningless question, nevertheless many people find it an impossible one to answer, and this has real consequences. One thing is for sure, it is not a scientific question, but a spiritual or philosophical one. Science will simply assume that survival is an aim, it won't ask the question 'why survive?' which is exactly why evolutionary and genetic theory ought not to try and take the place of spiritual or religious philosophy.


This is very much a scientific question. The purpose of surviving is reproducing. Those organisms who strove to survive left descendants who inherited this trait. Those organisms who did not strive to survive left fewer descendants (for obvious reasons) and were outcompeted. It's that simple.

"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion. Follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."
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jeeprs
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Posted 10/09/09 - 03:12 AM:
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But why survive in a universe that has no purpose?

(Marvellous how completely your answering the question illustrates your non-understanding of it. I f***, therefore I am. Pity you weren't around when Descartes needed you.)
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Posted 10/09/09 - 03:19 AM:
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jeeprs wrote:
But why survive in a universe that has no purpose?

(Marvellous how completely your answering the question illustrates your non-understanding of it. I f***, therefore I am. Pity you weren't around when Descartes needed you.)


There is no "big" answer to "why". The "purpose" for them is reproduction. The simple fact is that organisms can vary in their behavioral traits, just as they can vary in their physical traits. So, for instance, just as some mice have a darker coat than others, so too could some organisms have an increased desire for survival. I think you're having trouble with this point because all extant organisms share this trait, so it's difficult to imagine those which didn't have it. But, ancestral organisms varied in the degree to which they strove to survive, just as some organisms vary in their coat color. Those who strove the most intensely lived to pass on descendants; those who did not strive so hard died off (and took their genes with them).

"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion. Follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."
-T.H. Huxley
jeeprs
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Posted 10/09/09 - 03:38 AM:
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yes well this extant organism is troubled indeed for reasons you might one day understand.
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