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Homosexuality
persons and acts

Homosexuality

nosos
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Posted 04/28/08 - 05:50 AM: Subject: Homosexuality	#1
What's the relationship between a homosexual person and homosexual acts? Can a person be a homosexual and not perform homosexual acts? Can a person perform homosexual acts and yet not be a homosexual?
_____________________ "The men of the future will yet fight their way to many a liberty that we do not even miss? - Max Stirner "The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - JS Mill "I'd rather be a crying little pussy than a faggy Goth kid." - Butters

unenlightened
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Posted 04/28/08 - 12:09 PM:	#2
Is there a problem answering yes to both these questions? One can be celibate as a heterosexual or a homosexual, and one can be raped as either too. I see no reason in principle why one might not voluntarily perform a sexual act - (odious pseudo-objective circumlocution) without having the usual desires, as a favour, or homage, or simple experiment. In fact why not try it yourself, and let us know? PS Who the heck is Butters?
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swstephe
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Posted 04/28/08 - 08:30 PM:	#3
You might want to look at the Klein Sexual Grid: A - Sexual Attraction: To whom are you sexually attracted? B - Sexual Behaviour: With whom have you actually had sex? C - Sexual Fantasies: About whom are your sexual fantasies D - Emotional preference: Who do you feel more drawn to or close to emotionally? E - Social preference: Which gender do you socialize with? F - Lifestyle preference: In which community do you like to spend your time? In which do you feel most comfortable? G - Self-identification: How do you label or identify yourself? It rates each one on a scale of 0-7, (very few people are exclusively one or the other), and time periods, (people change over time). Yes, people can perform homosexual acts and not be homosexual, just as a strong homosexual can perform heterosexual acts without being heterosexual. I still find the ratings a bit limited, there should be an added dimension to rate obsessions -- from "asexual" to "dangerously addicted". There should also be some way of expressing a range, people don't really fit as points on a line, but define limits.
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RiyadhtheFacilitator
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Posted 04/28/08 - 10:20 PM:	#4
I know it's an arrogant first post. But, homosexuality only exists in our mind. But if I were to accept the laws of classification, if someone is homosexual, I would assume most of the acts they perform would be homosexual. But, for instance, if they were to have intercourse with a person of the opposite sex, they would be a homosexual performing non-homosexual acts. Still a homosexual. Because for them, an average day would not consist of drooling over females, looking up nude pictures of women, or performing heterosexual intercourse. An act of heterosexual intercourse would not change their frame of mind as a homosexual. Likewise, a non-homosexual person who has intercourse with a homosexual person, would be performing homosexual acts as a non-homosexual. Again, that's assuming heterosexual fascists abide by their own laws of classification as they are the only people that would classify a homosexual as a homosexual. Also, Butters is from south park... Edited by RiyadhtheFacilitator on 04/28/08 - 10:36 PM
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RedPhoenix
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Posted 05/01/08 - 02:20 AM:	#5
Actually.... my last girlfriend was a biology major in college and at one point she came across some research that suggested that homosexuality is based on a developmental anomaly or variation. It basically said that during their younger years a female might have unusual levels of testosterone or male might have high levels of estrogen (yes, both genders produce both hormones). This high level of hormones that are generally more dominant in the opposite gender could then cause them to develop in a manner more similar to the opposite than someone who didn't have these variations. Hence possible attraction to their own sex or the males being effeminate or women being more butch. That being said, I certainly don't dismiss the potential that homosexuality can also simply be a form of sociological or psychological behavior. I pretty much agree with Unenlightened about the original post.

Techeth
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Posted 05/01/08 - 05:28 AM:	#6
I think you can be a homosexual and not perform homosexual acts, simply by the fact you are inclined to engage in said acts. I also think you can be heterosexual and engage in homosexual acts. This is slightly more curious though. In prison it is common knowledge that men can engage in homosexual acts. These men may have never had nor considered having a homosexual experience, and once out of prison never engage in it again. I don't know this to be fact I assume it happens though. Saying that are these men homosexuals and engaging in heterosexual sex or heterosexuals that, engaged in homosexual sex? I would say the latter as I imagine sexuality is defined by preference. I imagine they would only be bisexual if they still were inclined to have both heterosexual and homosexual sex.
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DoctorInWaiting
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Posted 05/01/08 - 02:03 PM:	#7
maybe its intergroup conflict theory. For instance homosexuality can be argued to be an "abnormality" against utilitarianist society beliefs. (for the record, no im not against homosexuality!) But it is that initial labelling effect that causes discrimination between homo and hetero groups. In relation to the question homosexual people in general do a lot of heterosexual acts, but as a society because of the labelling we believe "yes they are gay" and society may just say he's doing that in a "gay way" exacerbating the label and further unconsciously exacerbating the societal outgroup. Although in an almost primitive rebellion against utilitarianism, homosexual people may do homosexual acts in public and conform to the label just to get back at heterosexual members and claim identity and be proud of what they are. I hope that made sense, This is my first post and although Im thoroughly interesting in philosophy, I am a currently studying Psychologist so if some ideologies that are proposed seem to conform to the positivist scientific paradigm...Im sorry!!
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keda
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Posted 05/01/08 - 02:42 PM:	#8
One could imagine (I leave that to someone else) a non-homosexual have homosexual sex purely for other motives than satisfying ones sexual desires.
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DoctorInWaiting
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Posted 05/01/08 - 06:32 PM:	#9
But keda if male species are born innately with biological differences that cause natural mating behaviour what other causes really can there be? genetically males are wanting sexual fitness, a genetic programme or code that represents a potential offspring with a mate. This may not have to be a female as there is gay men, but surely the drive is still there and therefore sex is sex, purely for gratification of ones desires. Please contest if you do not think that is right, after all I am here to learn!
_____________________ "The Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point however is to change it" Marx and Engels "Freedom of conscience entails more dangers than authority and despotism." Michel Foucault Society is rebelled against if society condemns

Techeth
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Posted 05/02/08 - 12:26 AM:	#10
I think sex can be used for reasons beyond mating and sexual gratification as is seen with rape as a punishment, although I think you could still argue gratification of other desires.
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swstephe
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Posted 05/02/08 - 04:22 AM:	#11
Some people often throw out the saying that "everyone is bisexual". I saw some truth in that saying, in that there is nothing physically preventing someone from having sex outside their normal group, so the difference must be primarily psychology, although the psychology could have a lot of different factors. I notice that the strongest psychological factor is aversion toward certain physical acts, not really attraction. Perhaps it is part of the social taboo system.
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 10:30 AM:	#12
I count desires solly. I see no reason why someone can't have all kinds of sex with the same sex and still not be attracted to them. A large amount of people pair up with people they aren't physically attracted too, ugly people need love too. The social stigma against homosexuality is relatively new, without people being conditioned to think there is something wrong with it, on top of having no sexual attraction to the same sex. I see no reason why without this it would be all that different to just have sex with someone you're not attracted to of the opposite sex. Women in porn do it all the time, they're straight. It's a job. A lot of them are bisexual or homosexual but not all are, and they still do it. In fact if your a guy and you want to get into porn, almost without exception you have to start your career in gay porn. So it is no doubt equally true that a large chunk of guys in gay porn are really straight. A - Sexual Attraction: To whom are you sexually attracted? B - Sexual Behaviour: With whom have you actually had sex? C - Sexual Fantasies: About whom are your sexual fantasies D - Emotional preference: Who do you feel more drawn to or close to emotionally? E - Social preference: Which gender do you socialize with? F - Lifestyle preference: In which community do you like to spend your time? In which do you feel most comfortable? G - Self-identification: How do you label or identify yourself? I'm sexually attracted to women. I've had sex with women. My sexual fantasties involve women, with other women. I feel more drawn to women, in fact I'm quite the softy for yuri romance and love stories, though I can't get into straight ones, because I don't give a shit about the guys. Well I have just as many women friends as I do guy friends. It would depend on the social event. Guys for my nerd activities, and girls going out and doing stuff. I don't know what you mean by community. You mean like straight or gay community? Because I don't think males and females can be seperated like that. Well I wouldn't know this one, the only homosexuals I know are online, though I don't feel uncomfortable at all talking to them, so I honestly don't know that one. I consider myself straight. Personally, I think one of those hardcore christians that are attracted to the same sex but live a heterosexual life, and never ever fullfil their sexual desires is a homosexual. While a guy that is in gay porn, trying to work up to straight porn, and has no sexual attraction to men, but instead is sexually attracted exclusively to women is a heterosexual. Though I see no reason to dwell on any of that as if it matters, or to dwell on such lables. Free love and all that jazz. Edited by Wosret on 05/02/08 - 10:53 AM
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 10:34 AM:	#13
DoctorInWaiting wrote: Although in an almost primitive rebellion against utilitarianism, homosexual people may do homosexual acts in public and conform to the label just to get back at heterosexual members and claim identity and be proud of what they are. I think this may be correct, not from my own experience, but a gay guy I know online was talking about a gay friend that he has that speaks with a exagerated lisp, that magically disappears when he gets angry.
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 10:45 AM:	#14
DoctorInWaiting wrote: But keda if male species are born innately with biological differences that cause natural mating behaviour what other causes really can there be? genetically males are wanting sexual fitness, a genetic programme or code that represents a potential offspring with a mate. This may not have to be a female as there is gay men, but surely the drive is still there and therefore sex is sex, purely for gratification of ones desires. Please contest if you do not think that is right, after all I am here to learn! I think this is backward, in the animal kingdom males are far less picky than females. Males strut their stuff, and present their attributes while females a choosy. This is because they traditionally would be far more effort into a family, they get stuck with the kids and such. Though in todays modern world, and with women in control of their reproduction, it is becoming a level playing field, while males and females equally contribute to a relationship. I think that it is a mistake to try to pin preferences to genetics. Indeed we have an innate sex drive, but there is nothing that suggests that recipricant of one's sexual desires must be programmed as well. I think there is far more to suggest that someone's sexual preferences develope at an extremely young age, maybe between 5-10. There is zero evidence that homosexuality is hereditary. No significant correlation has been established. I think that it is a odd thing to expect anyway, to expect any preference to be genetic. I do think that there is a false dichotomy that it is either a choice or genetic. I know I didn't choose my prefences, (at least consciously) they developed over time. My tastes for foods, music, my sexual orientation, what specifically about women I'm attracted to, and any other preference. I also think that whether it is a "choice" or not a is non-issue, I highly, extremely doubt that it is, but it wouldn't matter if it were. That wouldn't all of a sudden make it wrong. I think that people get trapped into arguing this non-issue too much, because they think it's wrong, so they want to argue it, regardless of whether the conclusion that homophobes try to establish is nonsense even if they were right.
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 10:57 AM:	#15
unenlightened wrote: PS Who the heck is Butters? The little blonde kid on South Park. Leopold Stotch, Butters is actually only his nickname, and is a clear play on his last name.
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Kwalish Kid
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Posted 05/02/08 - 11:14 AM:	#16
Wosret wrote: I think this is backward, in the animal kingdom males are far less picky than females. Males strut their stuff, and present their attributes while females a choosy. In many cases, if not the majority, this is probably a myth. Victorian attitudes played a large role in the interpretation of sex roles in biology and in some places continue to do so. Sexual attitudes promoted certain interpretations which in turn promoted certain attitudes. Some of Ruth Hubbard's work, iirc, documents this quite well.
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 12:32 PM:	#17
Perhaps. I'm no zoologist. It certaintly appears that way in almost every bird species I am aware of, but then I'm not big on trusting what appears to be the case. So I'll happily retract that. I don't know enough about that to argue that I'm right, so I will retract it. Though I will say that is what everything I've ever read on sexual sellection seemed to be saying.
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DoctorInWaiting
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Posted 05/02/08 - 12:40 PM:	#18
good points wosret. I do not think that gay behaviour is innate, i think being sexual active is but doesnt become obvious till adolescence. I do not really agree that "males are not choosy". Females in the animal kingdom need a male as a provider for themselves and thier offspring. Therefore it can be argued that females require in the animal kingdom are after an alfa male to provide and to protect. A male is after genetic robustness and fitness to obtain the most successful reproduction process. There is a lot of practical evidence for this. If you are a man you go and find a nice looking woman (and even better if they like the philosophical rambling that we do on here!) Unconsciously when a man says "she is fit" why do you think she is "fit"? There is a semantic shift in todays society however as sex is less for total evolutionary survival, but for pleasure (if you are young!) One feels the same for gay people, homosexuals obtain the most genetically fit gay man they can find. Its genetic (the drive for a partner) Whereas lesbians are after emotional ties (as well as fitness?) A tad reductionist, but please build on this
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 01:02 PM:	#19
Well I agree, and I didn't mean to imply that guys are not choosy, I only meant to say that women were more so, because they traditionally put more into the family. Though, as Kwalish Kid pointed out, I maybe be wrong there. A gay guy said on a thread on RD.net about gay guys and lesbians: "What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A Mortgage and a house cat" "What does a gay man bring on a second date? What's a second date?" He was saying that this isn't true though. I don't know what lesbians look for in mates generally. Though all my favorite yuri mangakas are lesbians, and if it can be judged from their preferences, then they are very much looking for looks.
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DoctorInWaiting
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Posted 05/02/08 - 01:12 PM:	#20
Fair enough, I think those analogies of second dates are amusing. Although there is not a real solid base of gay research in psychology. (I cant say the same for anthropologists/biologists etc) However individual differences is dominant and therefore it may be right that some lesbians look for attractive mates although i think this is a minority. Sexual attraction dominance is not biologically as much as males (Testosterone influences, etc) so one feels that lesbian attraction must be to do mostly with emotions and emotional providance. Having offspring is a 2nd matter to lesbians as they choose not to mate with men naturally (unless they are bi sexual), therefore maybe emotional providence maybe a crucial factor?
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Wosret
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Posted 05/02/08 - 02:06 PM:	#21
I think it would largely depend on the person, and as for drawing a normative conclusion based on a large amount fo source data, as you say I don't think that can be done, at least accurately, or currently. I can only draw a conclusion based on my own experience, and from based on that I can say that my sexual preferences seem to jive quite well with lesbians, as a large number of the people that I find interested in the same material I am are lesbians. In fact, some have been surprized to find out that I was a guy. I'm quite obsessed with yuri (a word meaning "lily" in Japanese, and lilies traditionally signify same-sex love in Japan, it is used in this case to mean lesbian specifically, also called shoujo-ai which literally means "girls's love" though is generally more oriented toward emotional relationships than sexual relationships, while yuri generally refers to more sexual than emotional. Though the words are loosing their seperate meanings, and are used synonemously these days. The gay equivolent is yaoi or shonen-ai. There are different yaoi and yuri, target audiances, some are aimed toward homosexuals, while others are aimed toward heterosexuals. I tend to like yuri aimed toward women just as much as I like yuri aimed toward men, and this appears to be equally true of most lesbians that like yuri.) so I keep myself informed about current events in the yuri world, and have read or watched anything yuri related. I find that the devide between men and women that like yuri is about 50/50 in my experience, though according to polls taken by major yuri magazines, such as Yuri Hime (targeted towards women) Yuri Hime S (targeted towards men) and Comichigh (describes themselve as "girlish stories for guys and girls.") the split is about 30/70 male audiance. Most telling though I think is Mist Magazine, which is a pornagraphic yuri magazine aimed toward women. I personally don't like pornographic manga, if it just has explicit sex in it, then that's fine, but it doesn't interest me to read manga that are about nothing but sex, I prefer moving pictures with sound for porn. Not saying I don't, or haven't read them, but I don't look forward to them. They almost always involve a straight women that wasn't satisfied with her current life getting swept away by a hot lesbian to find out what she has been missing, and then having a nice lesbian happy ever after. So, although there has been no sociological/anthropological studies done, I think it is fair to at least draw a tentative assumption based on what type of stories and fiction about lesbians interest lesbians. Now this is of course retricted to lesbians that like fiction at all, and then lesbians that like manga and anime. Which are a lot more than you may think. Yuricon, north america's (north america has a tiny manga audiance compared to Japan, manga is a 100 million a year inductry in north america, while it is a 4.7 billion a year inductry in Japan) only all yuri publishing agency seems to do alright, and it is run by a lesbian. I love her reviews, I tend to agree with everythign she says almost without exception, though she is a bit of a female chauninist with her ratings of anime and manga involving one entitled "loser fan-boys", and a not so great disposition toward guys. Though it isn't all that overt or anything, it's overlookable. So although, I don't think that it is universally true that lesbians care about looks as much as I do, or that even most do, but based on my experience, and the yuri fandom, I think it is fair to say that plenty do. Edited by Wosret on 05/02/08 - 02:16 PM
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