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Help please 'God' a nonsense word?
spiltteeth
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Posted 09/29/09 - 01:32 PM:
Subject: Help please 'God' a nonsense word?
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#1
You know that one guy whose smarter than everyone and intellectually bullies everyone around? Well, I'm a Christian, and everytime I use the word God this guy jumps in saying it's a nonsense word. Below are some highlights from our conversations, can anyone please help me with how I can respond? Do it for the little guy! Thanks!


Him:
"God" is an empty term since 'god' is incomprehensible, so it is impossible to say what 'he' is.

If it is possible to say under what circumstances an indicative sentence is either true or false, whether or not we know whether it is true or false, or even whether or not we could actually show that it is true or false, then it has a sense. But, then, to do that would be to repeat that sentence, so we would be no further forward. [This is partly why Wittgenstein said that what can be shown (by the use of language) cannot be said.]
In this case, with putatively indicative sentences about 'god', which use (but which do not merely mention) the word "god", this cannot be done since the word "god" is an empty term, and will forever remain an empty term. That is why any attempt to say what such sentences supposedly tell us cannot work, since they contain an empty term, "god".

No matter what you do or say, this insurmountable obstacle cannot be overcome, and that is because of the supposedly unique nature of 'god' -- 'he' is incomprehensible, so the word "god" cannot ever cease to be empty.

Quote: Me:
And if so, how do you claim one goes about deciding weather a sentence is true or not?

Him:
In ordinary circumstances, this would be done, for example, by the usual empirical means we have available to us (but there are other ways, too). So, it's not a matter of who decides, since the latter means are socially determined, not individualistically legislated.

But, once more, with putatively indicative sentences about 'god', which use (but which do not merely mention) the word "god", this cannot be done since the word "god" is an empty term, and will forever remain an empty term.

Hence, we could not even begin to say under what circumstances such sentences could be true or false without also using the empty term "god" in the process.

Once more, we hit another brick wall.

Quote Me :
And do I understand correctly that a term will be empty unless 1)it is comprehensible to me 2) I can tell 'what' it is 3) It must be qualified by other terms none of which may be self-referential?

HIM :
I did not say that a word must be comprehensible to you.

And, for what look like ordinary words, there are many things that can decide whether or not any one of them is empty or not.

In this unique case, however, with respect to "god", the above not apply. In this case, because 'god' is inherently incomprehensible to human beings, the word "god" will forever remain empty.

So, no matter what you say, we would still have no idea what you are banging on about when you use the word "god".

Of course, if you were to deny that 'god' is incomprehensible, then you would be referring, not to 'god', but to '*god*', and so you'd be no further forward.

Which is why when you say things like "God is F, G and H...", we are no further forward, and neither are you, since any such sentence is devoid of sense since it contains an empty word, namely "god".

'God' is essentially incomprehensible to you, so not even you know what you are banging on about when you use the word "god".

But, it is not possible to say whether Christian theism is true since Christian theism involves the use of indicative sentences about 'god', and as such they are devoid of sense, since they contain the empty word "god".

'God' is essentially incomprehensible to you, so not even you know what you are banging on about when you use the word "god".

This means that:

Whatever you tell us about 'god' will involve you saying things like this, "God is F, G and H...", and since this sentence contains an empty term, namely "god", we are no further forward.

And it is an empty word, since 'god' is essentially incomprehensible to you and to the rest of us.

Once more: There is no way for you out of this hole.



It's kinda like Ayers ignostisism or theological noncognitism but with some crucial, small differences.
Thanks for the help! God bless!
xzJoel
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Posted 09/29/09 - 02:36 PM:
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spiltteeth wrote:
You know that one guy whose smarter than everyone and intellectually bullies everyone around? Well, I'm a Christian, and everytime I use the word God this guy jumps in saying it's a nonsense word. Below are some highlights from our conversations, can anyone please help me with how I can respond? Do it for the little guy! Thanks!





It's kinda like Ayers ignostisism or theological noncognitism but with some crucial, small differences.
Thanks for the help! God bless!



It is vaguely amusing that you'd ask this question here. I suggest you look up posts by 180 Proof and then brace yourself for more of the same.

If you know what "god" means to you, define it and use it in that way. If he doesn't like your definition, that is his problem.

Ask him what "I am me" means.

Ask him what "Julius Cesaer was the emperor of Rome" means.

Ask him what "Sherlock Holmes was a detective" means.


Now if his problem is that he is saying that "God" as he defines the concept is incomprehensible, then what he is saying is that the entity to which "God" refers is not comprehensible by definition. To say, "I don't know what you are talking about when you say 'God'" is merely to restate that God is incomprehensible. If you agree with his definition, then you are likely to stuck with having to agree that you do not know what "God" refers to.

The thing is, you do not likely agree with his definition even if some pop theology tells you that "God" is essentially unknowable.

What created the universe? God.
Who ate the cookie from the cookie jar? John.

What is the difference in terms? Both are actions attributed to actors. What level of knowledge do I have to have about either entity to say that they are comprehensible?

Just focus on what John is. Examine things like the problem of identity. Is John the same as John was a second ago? Is John a collection of atoms? Is John a collection of certain atoms? The fact is, when you speak of John, you do not do so with any certainty of identity, rather you go with a hunch that John is who you suppose him to be.

When we use any subject in a sentence, it is likely "incomprehensible". We certainly don't comprehend the constituent parts of any object to which we refer (after all, if he is arguing empiricism he is likely an atomist/materialist.) At the most fundamental levels, you'll find that "things" may not exist at all, but rather vague probabilities of where things might be. So really, what use of a subject is ever comprehensible?

Human language has no definite, precise use. Every concept is vague and language is pragmatic. Why hold "God" to a different standard than anything else we discuss?

The God of the bible was an actor, not an abstraction. Don't get caught up in abstracting God into a game of logical semantics. You know God by what God does, not by what God is.

Edited by xzJoel on 09/30/09 - 02:46 PM

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Posted 09/29/09 - 06:55 PM:
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It's a fairly pathetic argument really, but atheists tend to get irritated when the god-squad bangs on about god as though they have some private access to the way things are. If there is no god, then it is an empty term in the way 'unicorn' is, not because it is nonsense, but because it is nonexistent. Now if I were to constantly be talking about what the unicorn says in the unicorn book, someone might accuse me of talking nonsense. So I can use the idea of god as a well enough understood term, but as soon as I declare that this is the way things are, then you are entitled to ask me what publicly shareable experiences I am talking about, and those are of course all of the world rather than god.

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Posted 09/29/09 - 06:57 PM:
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Well, just tell him you can comprehend what the word "God" means. If he even attempt to disagree remind him how he can't comprehend your experience to begin with, hence his attempt to talk about your experience is nonsensical.

In the end he can't claim "universal incomprehensibility" so long as you claim you can comprehend it.

Keep it simple.
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Posted 09/29/09 - 09:26 PM:
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I don't really see why he has a problem with you saying "God is X, Y, Z". See what he thinks of this equation: God is space. Both are invisible and omnipresent. This makes God comprehensible to me at least. Are you committed to the idea that God is incomprehensible?

Edited by bert1 on 09/30/09 - 01:14 AM. Reason: removed rogue comma

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Posted 09/29/09 - 10:35 PM:
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spiltteeth wrote:



If it is possible to say under what circumstances an indicative sentence is either true or false, whether or not we know whether it is true or false, or even whether or not we could actually show that it is true or false, then it has a sense. But, then, to do that would be to repeat that sentence, so we would be no further forward. [This is partly why Wittgenstein said that what can be shown (by the use of language) cannot be said.]
In this case, with putatively indicative sentences about 'god', which use (but which do not merely mention) the word "god", this cannot be done since the word "god" is an empty term, and will forever remain an empty term. That is why any attempt to say what such sentences supposedly tell us cannot work, since they contain an empty term, "god".



You are right to compare his arguments to Ayer's views. Your friend's position is predominantly a verificationist theory of meaning, i.e that every meaningful term is the means by which we verify its truth. (He throws in Wittgenstein, but shows that he doesn't understand that position, because W. thought that talk of sense and reference was incoherent. As far as what W means by language show and tell, Personally, I don't have clue.)

Your friend seems to be arguing the following:

If it is possible to say under what circumstances an indicative sentence is either true or false, whether or not we know whether it is true or false, or even whether or not we could actually show that it is true or false, then it has a sense.

This is the easy one. It is possible to say under what circumstances the sentence, "God exists" (G) is true. Since your friend accepts social criteria there are many circumstances when one can utter G and be acknowledged as true. For example, in church or a synagogue, among believers in conversations, etc. These are all circumstances when we can say that G is true.

I can imagine, however, that your friend will not accept this. He will probably back pedal and assert that we need to be able to verify empirically the truth of every sentence and that the meaning of the sentence is identical with the means by which it is verified. This is exactly where you want him.

The meaning of a sentence is the means by which we verify its truth. (V)

OK, granted (you say and smile evilly) What is the means of verifying the truth of the sentence you just uttered? If you can not tell me what empirical steps one takes to verify the truth of V, then by your own lights it is meaningless.

Just to be clear, I don't believe in god either, but his is simply a bad argument. Logical positivism taught us a lot and is pragmatically useful, but its philosophical aim to show definitively what constitutes a meaningful sentence is a failure.





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Posted 09/29/09 - 11:29 PM:
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The 'God' is very easy to understand if you spell it backwards.

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Posted 09/29/09 - 11:50 PM:
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Every undefined term lacks sense, so the criticism that "god" is nonsense" is defeated by defining it.

Caveat: Define your "god": if its predicates are contradictory and/or if they imply sine qua non facts that are not in evidence then "your god" -- as defined -- does not exist.


note: Ignostics are even lazier than agnostics.

Edited by 180 Proof on 09/30/09 - 12:06 AM. Reason: aum ...

The question isn't "Which explanations do I believe?" but rather "Which explanations do I least disbelieve?"

Absence of evidence THAT MUST BE THERE (i.e. implied by any claim, concept, or (its) predicates, that affects changes in/to the world) entails evidence of absence.

[What cannot be done?[What cannot be hoped?[What cannot be known?]]]
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Posted 09/30/09 - 04:57 AM:
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Using his own logic, I wonder if "him" can ever be defined an atheist. You can't dispute something undefined. Even as a nontheist, he couldn't ignore the possibility of something that wasn't comprehensible. He has elevated himself to the disreputable position of agnostic and weakened his objections. Better to rely on whatever definitions are at hand.

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Posted 09/30/09 - 08:32 AM:
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I'd state something about 'place-holders' but he'd take it the wrong way.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
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