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Heaven and Hell

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Heaven and Hell

GeorgeHawkins
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Posted 10/19/09 - 03:53 PM: Subject: heaven and hell	#1
Hello. I'd like to discuss something I thought up. To me it seems like a sound argument and I don't know that it's been thought up before. In a religion such as Christianity there is the belief that if you don't live by God's rules in life, you'll go to Hell when you die. Hell we're told is a terrible place that one should be scared of. So presumably people who would have been bad were it not for the fear of Hell end up in Heaven. So you're gonna end up with people who'll do bad once beyond the threat of Hell in Heaven, doing bad! If God, Heaven and Hell were real then God would want to see everyone's true colours, so he'd say to do whatever you like and not tell us what he considers to be good. If God wanted to see how good or bad we are by looking at our actions in this life he wouldn't tell us the rules. Edited by Incision on 10/24/09 - 11:47 AM. Reason: capitalization, punctuation
"What I understand by "philosopher": a terrible explosive in the presence of which everything is in danger." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

jsidelko
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Posted 10/19/09 - 05:07 PM:	#2
Contrary to what you may have heard God lets everyone into Heaven. For guys, Heaven is a continuous rump with 72 virgins who are replaced when they are used up. Women get 72 virginal studs to keep them happy. Hell is a place where there is no television, no Internet, no ipods, no cell phones, no malls and lots of ugly people who smell bad.
thanatos

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/19/09 - 06:02 PM:	#3
In a religion such as Christianity there is the belief that if you don't live by God's rules in life, you'll go to Hell when you die. As I'm Christian (though not Christian in the rigorous sense) myself, that is not a very accurate representation of Christianity. Christianity is all about the human is a corrupted and evil being but God still understands humanity underneath all that corruption (understand that underneath is different than despite) and gives us a free (meaning you don't need to do anything) chance to follow God. All you have to do is accept the chance. Heaven we're told is a terrible place that one should be scared of. I'm quite sure you mean hell? So presumably people who would have been bad were it not for the fear of Hell end up in Heaven. So you're gonna end up with people who'll do bad once beyond the threat of Hell in Heaven, doing bad! I think "Christians" who try to evangelize by making people fear hell are contradicting their own belief system. So I agree but disagree with you. If God wanted to see how good or bad we are by looking at our actions in this life he wouldn't tell us the rules. That depends on your view of ethics. My view on ethics' main basis is on the psychological intentions of human beings, not just following "rules" of doing good acts which metaphysical zombies or robots can also do. Edited by Incision on 10/24/09 - 11:48 AM. Reason: quoted edited post
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

GeorgeHawkins
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Posted 10/19/09 - 07:05 PM:	#4
Dragohunter wrote: As I'm Christian (though not Christian in the rigorous sense) myself, that is not a very accurate representation of Christianity. Christianity is all about the human is a corrupted and evil being but God still understands humanity underneath all that corruption (understand that underneath is different than despite) and gives us a free (meaning you don't need to do anything) chance to follow God. All you have to do is accept the chance. He does threaten us with firey brimstone and eternal torment and that sort of thing if we don't do as he says tho. I'm quite sure you mean hell? Yes, I mean hell. Post edited. I think "Christians" who try to evangelize by making people fear hell are contradicting their own belief system. So I agree but disagree with you. The bible does paint hell as quite an unpleasent place... That depends on your view of ethics. My view on ethics' main basis is on the psychological intentions of human beings, not just following "rules" of doing good acts which metaphysical zombies or robots can also do. It also has a clear list of rules... I am trying to spark a discussion about the insight in Christianity itself, not concerning the validity of Christianity. I'm coming at it from a ''its all lies designed to control you'' sort of perspective having been influenced by Nietzsche's ideas on how it makes you content when you really shouldn't be. No doubt it does have insight but what im interested in doing is breaking it. Sorry. I start a philosophy degree next year. I'm posting this (and my post in the simulation argument thread which I also thought up myself) to test the arguments but also because I've shared them before and wanted to put them down somewhere where they'd be dated so I could refer back to them so i can use them in higher education without fear of being accused of plagiarizing were someone to try and nab off with them. Edited by GeorgeHawkins on 10/19/09 - 07:27 PM
"What I understand by "philosopher": a terrible explosive in the presence of which everything is in danger." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/20/09 - 09:27 AM:	#5
GeorgeHawkins wrote: He does threaten us with firey brimstone and eternal torment and that sort of thing if we don't do as he says tho. Which verses in the bible can you prove clarifies this? Or is this an idea simply the church reinstated? And if you do, realize that warning is different from threaten. The bible does paint hell as quite an unpleasent place... I think North Korea as an unpleasant place too, God didn't "design" hell in the rigorous sense. It simply exists as a void where his essence can't reach people. It also has a clear list of rules... Formed from propositions from people's intentions. These "rules" are ways that we should go by, like not touching a fire with your bare hands. I'm coming at it from a ''its all lies designed to control you'' sort of perspective having been influenced by Nietzsche's ideas on how it makes you content when you really shouldn't be. No doubt it does have insight but what im interested in doing is breaking it. Sorry. No I made my mistake, but this belongs into the religion section (sub-forum) implying by your first post. If you wanted to destroy the insight you should post a seperate topic discussing the named topic. I assumed you were asking questions of Christianity itself.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

Theseus925
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Posted 10/20/09 - 10:57 AM:	#6
Dragohunter writes: Christianity is all about the human is a corrupted and evil being but God still understands Beyond the Curse Whatever is behind the universe, Has revealed its nature in life on earth. The killing and eating chain illustrate That killing is one of its prime dictates. The dominance law and pecking order Show that compassion is out of order. Some men, though, look out for one another And offer compassion to their brother. Clearly these who have overcome God's curse, Have surpassed what's behind the universe. Copyright 2008 by Theseus Edited by Theseus925 on 10/20/09 - 05:37 PM
We are in a war with time. While we are looking for ways to kill time, time is looking for ways to kill us--Theseus

Wosret
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Posted 10/20/09 - 11:09 AM:	#7
jsidelko wrote: Hell is a place where there is no television, no Internet, no ipods, no cell phones, no malls and lots of ugly people who smell bad. And I thought that people were exaggerating about my home town...
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

Benjamin Franklin5
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Posted 10/21/09 - 04:50 PM:	#8
GeorgeHawkins wrote: If god, heaven and hell were real then god would want to see everyones true colours so he'd say to do whatever you like and not tell us what he considers to be good. If god wanted to see how good or bad we are by looking at our actions in this life he wouldn't tell us the rules. But if God never showed us the rules, than how can you think that God, heaven, or hell even existed?

swstephe
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Posted 10/22/09 - 02:29 AM:	#9
I think the most common conception of "heaven" is not that people get in by what they do, (following the rules), but by what they believe. That is, someone who does everything "right" according to the rules, won't get into heaven if they aren't believers. The big debate in Christianity is salvation by "works" or "faith", (and sometimes "grace"). There are examples of people who have been promised "paradise", but haven't done anything. I guess you can't change the conclusion to "God shouldn't tell us who he is". There are a few dozen other threads about the morality of rewarding people who only did good things out of the expectation of being rewarded. Mainstream Christianity would say that doing good things comes from believing, but can't avoid that faith is usually reasoned by being rewarded. In other threads, I've argued that it is better for someone to be rewarded for doing good while believing that they wouldn't be rewarded with heaven.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.

GeorgeHawkins
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Posted 10/23/09 - 05:39 AM:	#10
Dragohunter wrote: Which verses in the bible can you prove clarifies this? Or is this an idea simply the church reinstated? And if you do, realize that warning is different from threaten. I think North Korea as an unpleasant place too, God didn't "design" hell in the rigorous sense. It simply exists as a void where his essence can't reach people. The all-powerful God created everything, though, according to the Bible. Formed from propositions from people's intentions. These "rules" are ways that we should go by, like not touching a fire with your bare hands. No I made my mistake, but this belongs into the religion section (sub-forum) implying by your first post. If you wanted to destroy the insight you should post a seperate topic discussing the named topic. I assumed you were asking questions of Christianity itself. It's not so much the insight I want to destroy so much as the belief that there will be rewards after death for being meek, poor and generally pathetic. There won't be. Instead of thinking about how to live in a way that would please God, people should be thinking about how to have the best existence they can have. Not only is the belief in having post mortem retribution for actions in life and then telling people about it in life illogical, the fact that damage to the physical brain causes a loss of part of the mind proves that without the physical brain the mind cannot exist. Edited by Incision on 10/24/09 - 11:52 AM. Reason: capitalization, punctuation
"What I understand by "philosopher": a terrible explosive in the presence of which everything is in danger." - Friedrich Nietzsche.

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