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Happiness is a Warm Gun
Benkei
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Posted 05/04/08 - 11:01 AM:
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#26
Really, I'm not interested in whipping Europeans for "past sins". That's not my game, though the numbers are staggering (one European murder spree alone, the attempt to wipe out the Jews, equals 500 years of American murders).

The more important question is whether modern Europe is prepared to meet the challenges ahead. Many Americans like me have given up on Europe and would be very disinclined to save Europe for a third time.

I think America at least shares some of the blame for this. Keeping American troops in Germany just encouraged Europeans to indulge pacifism. Forget getting out of Iraq, get America the fuck out of Europe!


That would be nice and while the US is at it they should stop playing geo-strategical games in the Balkan, which once again threatens to destabilise the region more than necessary.

It's also interesting that every American considers that the US saved Europe. Never mind the Soviets, Canadians, British, French etc. etc. Americans also forget it was US money and trading with Nazis that funded the build up of the war and continued to do so well into the war. The threat of fascism was real for the US once Europe would have lost from the Nazis (which it probably would in the long run). The US saved itself after partially creating the mess in the first place. The whole affair shows there are no winners only losers when the "great powers" play their games.

The only positive development recently, after the disgusting theatrics surrounding Kosovo's independence, is the association agreement offered to Serbia for joining the EU. That supra-national system of law is Europe's best hope of avoiding any future wars in Europe.

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Posted 05/04/08 - 11:36 AM:
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#27
Benkei wrote:
It's also interesting that every American considers that the US saved Europe. Never mind the Soviets, Canadians, British, French etc. etc. Americans also forget it was US money and trading with Nazis that funded the build up of the war and continued to do so well into the war. The threat of fascism was real for the US once Europe would have lost from the Nazis (which it probably would in the long run). The US saved itself after partially creating the mess in the first place. The whole affair shows there are no winners only losers when the "great powers" play their games.

Let's run through your list:

The British? They are among the Euopreans saved. The French? They were conqured and contributed very little to their own liberation in spite of the romance of the French Resistence. Canadians? You forgot the Austrialians, Indians, and South Africans. All were part of the British Empire in one way or another.

As to the Soviets, there of course is the answer to why America stayed in Europe. Perhaps you are one of those who would have been as happy on either side of the Iron Curtain, there was certainly no shortage of home-grown communists in post-WWII western Europe. If so, you won't be inclined to crediting America for saving western Europe from Communism.

Yes, America had its own motives for saving Europe both from the Nazis and the Communists. But I fear that all that was accomplished was to kick the can down the road. As Mark Steyn puts it, "Ameica stands alone." Just look at how useless the Europeans were in Afghanistan.

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Posted 05/04/08 - 01:03 PM:
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#28
Cuthbert wrote:
Maybe carrying a gun makes JAC happy. Maybe shoplifting makes me happy. Being made happy by something doesn't give either of us the right to do it.



Like cortes, I've got good reason to feel happy. Just a little common nonsense goes a long way here. I've got all the stuff I lift from shops. For free. Only a fool pays for his shopping. Any reasonable person would conclude that shop-lifting will promote his economic welfare - as long as nobody takes stuff from him of course. Same with owning a gun: it's clearly advantageous, as long as you don't get shot by someone who thinks the same way.


What is your point? Shoplifting is stealing. It is harmful to the victim. Owning a gun has no victim. Did you put any thought into that post? Apparently not.
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Posted 05/04/08 - 02:08 PM:
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An unarmed population with an army, is as defenseless as one without one. The only difference being that the population is burdened to maintain the army. Not one tyrant came into power without first disarming the population.

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Posted 05/04/08 - 03:36 PM:
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#30
Tobias wrote:


I for instance am a different type. I am not very big or skilled in the ways of violence. For types such as Brack Obama and myself ( sticking out tongue ) gun control makes sense. We like to promote argument as a way of conflict resolution. Lawyers you see.


Argument is a fine way to resolve conflicts, but the slightest amount of thought tells us that it can't resolve all of them. The situations in which a responsible person needs to use a gun are precisely the ones which mere talk cannot resolve. If someone breaks into your house to rob you, rape you, or whatever, debate is not going to resolve the conflict favorably for you.


The tide is turning in our favour luckily. Since self reliance is totally impossible in city life, deals have to be made and argument is the only way to survive the war of all against all. That means curtailing the ones who like to employ 'self reliant' tactics, because their physical superiority tends to disbalance the process of argumentation. Argument only makes sense if people have equal recourse to other means such as violence. You never win an argument for a gun. Ergo we argumenters don't want guns. We can't control them and we fear they will use physical or supremacy to win the day. We can't have that.


Again, your argument fails. The situations in which 'self-reliant types' (i.e., in your eyes, people willing to defend themselves with firearms) have cause to defend themselves aggressively are ones in which there is no process of argumentation to be unbalanced. If an armed man breaks into your house at night and you shoot him, how was the process of argumentation impeded? There was no argument. The criminal ignores civil society's conventions for peacefully resolving conflicts. He behaves as an animal and can justly be treated as such.

Conquistadores are an annoying breed because they seem to idolise violence and a general macho culture. This runs against our intellectual grain. So it makes sense, from a conflict perspective that we try to curtail you. We do that by promoting gun control and other measure to create a level playing field. Since lawyers make law we will win. A gun had a function in a past society, it is a relic, though a deadly one. So we ban it.


If a gun has 'no function' then I take it that your ideal state would destroy all guns. Its armies wouldn't have them, its police wouldn't have them. Since this is absurd, obviously guns have a function even today.

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Posted 05/04/08 - 04:41 PM:
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The justification for having a gun is the same as the justification for having a police and military i.e. to protect us, and without a counterweight of power to overthrow a corrupt govenment, we are defenseless.

A final comment is that it is quite hypocritical to enforce a ban on gun on the basis that guns can only be used for evil. Argumenters can now come forth and put forth an argument that would convince me why to give up a gun, and I would do so, but if they hypocritically use non-argumentative tactics then I would respond with the same card.

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If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild
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Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan
A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant
Benkei
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Posted 05/05/08 - 12:16 AM:
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#32
cortes wrote:

Let's run through your list:

The British? They are among the Euopreans saved. The French? They were conqured and contributed very little to their own liberation in spite of the romance of the French Resistence. Canadians? You forgot the Austrialians, Indians, and South Africans. All were part of the British Empire in one way or another.


Whether you fight and lose and fight to win, the effort and intent does not change, does it? Or are you saying that the British soldiers losing their lives are somehow less important than Americans? Besides the French were pivotal in avoiding the institution of AMGOT, another one of those fine "american" ideas.

As to the Soviets, there of course is the answer to why America stayed in Europe. Perhaps you are one of those who would have been as happy on either side of the Iron Curtain, there was certainly no shortage of home-grown communists in post-WWII western Europe. If so, you won't be inclined to crediting America for saving western Europe from Communism.


Some aspects of Russian culture are definitely preferable above that of US culture - like actually being able to tell the difference between Bartok and Rachmaninov for instance. But these "what if" scenarios are ridiculous. What if Hitler had won? I'm born an "Arian" so my life would have been pretty sweet. It's irrelevant. What is relevant is looking at what really happened and then we see blatant disregard for human life (Dresden bombing, Japan etc., holocaust) on both sides and competing interests on both sides. The liberation of Europe was a byproduct and was not the US' intent (AMGOT was).

And about lessons: It was German nationalism and pride and unwavering support for the Nazi party because it identified with the "German" cause and the subsequent idea that it was exceptional among all the other States that created the environment for such atrocities to be committed. It's American nationalism, blindness for its own shortcomings and the idea that it "stands alone" and is therefore exceptional among all States that is dragging it in unnecessary wars now. All the time you are wildly accusing every other country but your own government who are really to blame for the wrong choices the US makes. Most, if not all of the US' problems at this time are of its own making (credit cresis, mortgage crises, dot-com crises, various wars etc. etc.) and it's its sheer size that turns it into "global" problems. NOTE: I'm not saying the US causes all international conflicts and problems, just blind to its own role in almost all of them.

Yes, America had its own motives for saving Europe both from the Nazis and the Communists. But I fear that all that was accomplished was to kick the can down the road. As Mark Steyn puts it, "Ameica stands alone." Just look at how useless the Europeans were in Afghanistan.


Yes, just look at how well the US accomplished its objectives in Afghanistan. Where is Bin Laden? All you did was kick the can into Pakistan. Grow up and take some responsibility. Of course it's the Europeans fault again. I suppose you could blame the Vietnam and the Iraq war on us too. Apparently you're patriotic enough to tout all the US' great achievements, time to own up to its many failures too.

In any case, I wish Europeans as a whole would realise that America indeed stands alone. That, when push-comes-to-shove, it will not support any country (except for, maybe, Israel) unless its own vital interests are at stake. It has always been that way and will stay like that for a long time. There is only one rule in American international policy; the USA is exceptional, it is therefore free to do as it wish. That makes it an inherently untrustworthy partner as it has shown several times in the recent past and as will become apparent more vividly as its economic, military and soft power slowly erode and it fails to adjust it's thinking to the reality that it is, in fact, not exceptional at all.

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Posted 05/05/08 - 01:48 AM:
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#33
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/04/opinion/ed...

Friedman on US' position.

It appears happiness for most people has rather little to do with owning a gun, since they want completely different thing. Of course, I can understand that in a country with so much insecurity, the security of being able to blow someone's brains out counts for something. Personally, I'd be more agitated with a gun in my house; afraid my niece would find it, a friend decides to "play" with it, etc. etc. I'm happier without one because of it.

Having a gun is also a sense of fake security. Certainly when faced with another gun it just raises the chance of both gun-toting neanderthals to blow each other's brains out. And with more neanderthals packing guns, statistically it will happen more often. Actually... wait. Keep your guns. I'll just sit back and watch the fireworks.

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Posted 05/05/08 - 05:35 AM:
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#34
Benkei wrote:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/04/opinion/ed...

Friedman on US' position.

It appears happiness for most people has rather little to do with owning a gun, since they want completely different thing. Of course, I can understand that in a country with so much insecurity, the security of being able to blow someone's brains out counts for something. Personally, I'd be more agitated with a gun in my house; afraid my niece would find it, a friend decides to "play" with it, etc. etc. I'm happier without one because of it.

Having a gun is also a sense of fake security. Certainly when faced with another gun it just raises the chance of both gun-toting neanderthals to blow each other's brains out. And with more neanderthals packing guns, statistically it will happen more often. Actually... wait. Keep your guns. I'll just sit back and watch the fireworks.


Wow, what a sneering and obnoxious article.
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Posted 05/05/08 - 05:43 AM:
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Yes, it's one of the American American-haters who wants to turn the US into Europe.

Of course, for that to be truly possible you need to start taking your own lives in greater numbers, start a genocide or two and learn to tell the difference between a Pinot Noir and a Tokay Pinot Gris! grin

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Posted 05/05/08 - 05:45 AM:
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Benkei wrote:

Certainly when faced with another gun it just raises the chance of both gun-toting neanderthals to blow each other's brains out.

When faced with another gun, and you don't have one, what do you do then? Most thieves would not risk their lives.

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Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan
A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant
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Posted 05/05/08 - 05:52 AM:
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I have my stuff to give to the thief. I'm not risking my life for anything I can buy... I'm not that greedy.

In any case, if the thief packs a gun and he intends to shoot me, he will regardless of whether I am packing a gun. If I pack a gun there is a likelihood I will shoot the thief unnecessarily (in case he doesn't intend to shoot me) or that he will shoot me before I shoot him or that we both shoot each other. Seems like me that any way you cut it, more people are going to die if I'm packing.

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Posted 05/05/08 - 06:00 AM:
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#38
Benkei wrote:

I have my stuff to give to the thief. I'm not risking my life for anything I can buy... I'm not that greedy.

Greedy enough to not care about others who face thieves sponsored by you, who would be an accessory to crime.

In any case, if the thief packs a gun and he intends to shoot me, he will regardless of whether I am packing a gun. If I pack a gun there is a likelihood I will shoot the thief unnecessarily (in case he doesn't intend to shoot me) or that he will shoot me before I shoot him or that we both shoot each other. Seems like me that any way you cut it, more people are going to die if I'm packing.

That is illogical. People don't have guns only to protect themselves but also their property. A thief is not likely to try to rob anyone with a gun, for the risk of getting shot, however they are very likely going to target someone who has not got one.

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The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin
If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild
It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin
Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan
A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant
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Posted 05/05/08 - 06:01 AM:
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#39
To feel more secure with a frightful weapon at hand is natural, but is it rational? How many kinds of problems can a weapon solve? Only the most simplistic mind would think that you can solve the problem of greed with a weapon. All you can do is inhibit overt action. The psychological motivations for aggression don't get reduced, only suppressed (temporarily?)

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Posted 05/05/08 - 06:36 AM:
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keda wrote:

Greedy enough to not care about others who face thieves sponsored by you, who would be an accessory to crime.


I sponsor thieves because I choose not to fight them when they are robbing me and consequently I am in fact an accessory to the crime?

That's a rhetorical question to emphasise for all the other readers how ludicrous that is.

Is there an obligation on me to protect my own property? Is there an obligation for me to punish people for their own (wrongful) choices? Am I still allowed to forgive and forget? Please, oh mighty Keda, will you let me be free to decide for myself how I live my life?

And obviously gun ownership is really a great deterrant for thieves considering the crime rates for burglary and such in the US and those in the Netherlands, where I live. But never mind the facts, it's guns we want because it makes us happy.

That is illogical. People don't have guns only to protect themselves but also their property. A thief is not likely to try to rob anyone with a gun, for the risk of getting shot, however they are very likely going to target someone who has not got one.


It's illogical to assume that I share your sense of morality. I presume you have a gun to shoot the thief and I assume the thief doesn't know you and therefore doesn't know whether you have a gun or not. But for all the thieves that do knkow, apparently you are the asshole that causes all of them to rob me because since you have a gun, they are all coming to my house now! grin

Because you are swinging your gun around all the time (how else will you let them know you got one?), they are more effective thieves!

I'm just making fun of you. When are you going to offer real arguments?

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Posted 05/05/08 - 07:14 AM:
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Benkei wrote:

I sponsor thieves because I choose not to fight them when they are robbing me and consequently I am in fact an accessory to the crime?

That's a rhetorical question to emphasise for all the other readers how ludicrous that is.

I take that as an admission you cannot prove me wrong.


Is there an obligation on me to protect my own property? Is there an obligation for me to punish people for their own (wrongful) choices? Am I still allowed to forgive and forget? Please, oh mighty Keda, will you let me be free to decide for myself how I live my life?

I would be happy to see you imprisoned; nothing personal though, only that justice is preserved. I'm willing to change my mind though about this, only if you instead choose to make arguments for the sake of convincing me rather than relying on rhetoric.


But for all the thieves that do knkow, apparently you are the asshole that causes all of them to rob me because since you have a gun, they are all coming to my house now! grin

What's the problem? You already admitted you would give them your property.

I'm just making fun of you. When are you going to offer real arguments?

If you could shoot a hole in any arguments I made, you would not have to rely on rhetorics.

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The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin
If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild
It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin
Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan
A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant
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Posted 05/05/08 - 07:44 AM:
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#42
The holes are self-evident for anyone so they don't require any "shooting".

And I'm not relying on rhetorics but a sense of humour on your part, which, along with a grasp of logic, you apparently lack. I simply refuse to have to argue against foolish opinions but prefer to lightly nudge you in a direction that would illicit some (re)thinking on your part. Do with that what you will but good luck with finding someone equally interested in having useless arguments.

Unless, of course, you'll provide me with an argument instead of wishing I was imprisoned or robbed or making ludicrous assumptions about what I write or my level of responsibility for other people's choices (weren't you against taxes and for the free market? but you do require me to shoot burglars to make your life saver, it's really all very inconsistent you know). So, give it your best shot, if it's a good argument I might even concede you're right, if it is a good argument that I don't agree with, I'll offer a rebuttal. There won't be any shooting from me though. I'm not packing remember.

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Posted 05/05/08 - 08:36 AM:
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Benkei wrote:

And I'm not relying on rhetorics but a sense of humour on your part, which, along with a grasp of logic, you apparently lack.

You openly admitted you made a rhetoric question. As such, you are the one making a claim so stop trying to turn the tables; you had your chance to ask me to back up my statement, but instead you choose to attack it with a rheotical question, so I now ask you to provide an argument. Alternatively you can choose to retract it along with your insistence that I lack a grasp of logic (which you have not shown to be the case), in case of which I will grant you another chance to ask me to back up my statement.


Unless, of course, you'll provide me with an argument instead of wishing I was imprisoned or robbed or making ludicrous assumptions about what I write or my level of responsibility for other people's choices

Let me put it straight, that I do not wish you or anyone to be robbed, nor imprisoned except in case you are robbing someone else or participating in robbery, by funding such activity, or any other criminal activity for that matter. If you think there is something strange about this, then I guess its because of your criminality or because of your sympathy with criminals. Furthermore, I made no assumption regarding your level of responsibility of other people's choices.



weren't you against taxes and for the free market?

I'm for the free market, but I don't recall any admission of being against taxes in general. I certainly am not against all form of taxes.

it's really all very inconsistent you know

Of course, if you could find my admitting somewhere, that I am against all kinds of taxes, which you have not shown.




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The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin
If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild
It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin
Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan
A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant
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Posted 05/05/08 - 08:49 AM:
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Benkei wrote:
Whether you fight and lose and fight to win, the effort and intent does not change, does it?

In that case, perhaps we should include the Dutch. Remind me, now many days did they manage to serve as a speed bump for the Wehrmacht?

Benkei wrote:
What is relevant is looking at what really happened and then we see blatant disregard for human life (Dresden bombing, Japan etc., holocaust) on both sides and competing interests on both sides.

War is hell. Better stick to lawyering and leave the kicking ass to the Americans.

Benkei wrote:
And about lessons: It was German nationalism and pride and unwavering support for the Nazi party because it identified with the "German" cause and the subsequent idea that it was exceptional among all the other States that created the environment for such atrocities to be committed.

This might fly if Germany had been the exception to the European experience, the lone warmonger among a continent of sheep. Alas, this is not history. The Americans came to the conclusion that the Europeans were just not up to managing their affairs. Hence the babysitting. You'd think, by now, that Europeans and Americans could agree that Europe has gotten its act together and that American troops could come home. Instead, it turns out that Europe will be joining the American missle defense system.

Benkei wrote:
In any case, I wish Europeans as a whole would realise that America indeed stands alone. That, when push-comes-to-shove, it will not support any country (except for, maybe, Israel) unless its own vital interests are at stake.

If only. If only.

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Posted 05/05/08 - 09:42 AM:
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#45
Benkei wrote:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/04/opinion/ed... It appears happiness for most people has rather little to do with owning a gun, since they want completely different thing. ...Yes, it's one of the American American-haters who wants to turn the US into Europe.

Liberal editorialists are not "most people" but I do agree with you that they are indeed an unhappy lot what with America refusing to be more like Europe in spite of their constant carping for it.

These people are particularly frustrated with America's love affair with guns. Only a decade ago they thought they could get European-style gun control in America. Now even the Democrats claim to be in favor fo the Second Amendment and most states have liberalized their concealed carry laws.

Benkei wrote:
Having a gun is also a sense of fake security. Certainly when faced with another gun it just raises the chance of both gun-toting neanderthals to blow each other's brains out. And with more neanderthals packing guns, statistically it will happen more often. Actually... wait. Keep your guns. I'll just sit back and watch the fireworks.

Don't let facts get in the way of your pacifist fantasies.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K6dIvTFsDMkC&...

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Posted 05/05/08 - 12:47 PM:
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#46
Keda, please improve your English.

Cortes, how nice that you can point me to a book. Never mind that it has long since been shown that it makes no difference in the crime rate for violent crime but an increase in deaths due to violent crime. This can be seen in the recent crime rates in London for instance, which recently has forbidden gun ownership.

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keda
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Posted 05/05/08 - 01:23 PM:
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#47
Benkei wrote:
Keda, please improve your English.

I don't see what problem you have with what I wrote. It seems like correct English to me. Why don't you reply to any of what I said, and why don't you explain what you don't think is correct English?

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cortes
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Posted 05/05/08 - 03:58 PM:
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#48
Benkei wrote:
Cortes, how nice that you can point me to a book. Never mind that it has long since been shown that it makes no difference in the crime rate for violent crime but an increase in deaths due to violent crime. This can be seen in the recent crime rates in London for instance, which recently has forbidden gun ownership.

Hmmm. I poinit you to a book that refutes your claim and you dismiss the book in favor of your prejudices. Nice.

Actually, though, English crime was at its lowest when it had no gun control.

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Posted 05/06/08 - 01:34 AM:
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#49
rabeldin wrote:
To feel more secure with a frightful weapon at hand is natural, but is it rational? How many kinds of problems can a weapon solve? Only the most simplistic mind would think that you can solve the problem of greed with a weapon. All you can do is inhibit overt action. The psychological motivations for aggression don't get reduced, only suppressed (temporarily?)


If you could suppress overt action temporarily, that would be a win in itself. If criminals are deterred by a particular factor, they'll commit fewer crimes over their lifespans than they would have otherwise, ceteris paribus. It's rather like how in sports playing defense does not necessarily prevent the other team's offense from succeeding, but if it hinders it at all, then it's better than playing no defense whatsoever.

Edited by 7 on 05/06/08 - 01:38 AM
Tobias
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Posted 05/06/08 - 02:46 PM:
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#50
Scientifically unsound as it may be these wiki numbers are rather enlightening: "Despite the overall crime rate of the United States being seemingly in line with that of other industrialized countries, its homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. Comparing just homicide rates by themselves, however, may not be representative of the overall crime rate of a country. Only the homicide rate of Northern Ireland in the early 1990s compares to that of the United States today. In 2004, there were 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 persons, compared to 1.9 in Canada and 1.0 in Germany."

The source is the German Bundeskriminalamt, here: http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2004/index2.html How is your German Cortes? Anyway compared to civil war torn Northern Ireland the US is not doing badly. By the way what method of murder is preferred in the US one wonders? According to the US justice department the handgun is the assailant's weapon of choice. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

Ahh well.



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