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God's Failed Creation

BubbaSwitzler
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Posted 12/24/05 - 08:01 AM: Subject: God's Failed Creation	#1
ZenEthics wrote: I do not demand gratification from a blind apathetic universe, i do however Demand a perfect existence from a perfect God. Mariner wrote: ...the core of the PoE is unreasonable. It means suing the universe. How did it come to be that God was expected to provide us a blissful existence? I doubt that you will find such demands from people who experienced genuine suffering and hardship? They were usually content to ask deliverance from their specific problem. When did God become a failure for not satisfying our every want and desire? When did unfulfilled want and desire become evils to be eradicated by a just God?
"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"

malneyugnfl
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Posted 12/24/05 - 02:41 PM:	#2
That's a really confusing question. Are you asking when did people expect god to fulfill thier wants? Well people started believing that when they were told that god is omnipotent and has total power over our lives. When they were told as little kids that god was always there for them; that was when people believed that god could do everything for them. It's natural isn't it(human nature)? To believe that an all knowing and powerful god that is good and knows everything about you will make you happy? Personally, I don't really on God for any spiritual,emotional and physical comfort. I really on myself and actual tangible people in this world for that. At least, I know those 2 things are there..

Monroe
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Posted 12/24/05 - 03:04 PM:	#3
BubbaSwitzler wrote: How did it come to be that God was expected to provide us a blissful existence? I doubt that you will find such demands from people who experienced genuine suffering and hardship? They were usually content to ask deliverance from their specific problem. When did God become a failure for not satisfying our every want and desire? When did unfulfilled want and desire become evils to be eradicated by a just God? Of course, some of our desires conflict with each other. In life, we have to look to long term considerations and be rational about our wants. But that issue aside, isn't it a conceptual truth that unfulfilled desires are evils, at least evil for us (on the subjective level)? And forget your rhetorical wording of the question: "...not satisfying our every want and desire..." You make it sound like the problem of evil is the result of whiny children. What about pain and suffering, and living an unfulfilled life? Surely a benevolent god wouldn't allow such things if he were there. I mean, why would God create us with such unfulfilled desires if he is benevolent anyway? Wouldn't he just leave us content with what we have? What is his purpose supposed to be anyway? Is creation God's big joke? Or maybe there isn't an all powerful benevolent god.

BubbaSwitzler
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Posted 12/24/05 - 03:37 PM:	#4
Monroe wrote: But that issue aside, isn't it a conceptual truth that unfulfilled desires are evils, at least evil for us (on the subjective level)?...Surely a benevolent god wouldn't allow such things if he were there. I mean, why would God create us with such unfulfilled desires if he is benevolent anyway? Wouldn't he just leave us content with what we have? What is his purpose supposed to be anyway? Is creation God's big joke? Or maybe there isn't an all powerful benevolent god. I wanted to split this question off the topic of the Problem of Evil. Historically, what led people to condemn God for his failure as a creator? malneyugnfl wrote: It's natural isn't it(human nature)? To believe that an all knowing and powerful god that is good and knows everything about you will make you happy? But this is not consistent with the history of theology. I think this is a realtively new expectation. I probably should do some research on the question but I wanted to throw it out to see if anyone else had studied it. It seems to be a recurrent modern issue.
"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"

philosophy
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Posted 12/24/05 - 04:01 PM:	#5
To speak briefly, I think its origin is in the various Christian movements that considered the Old Testament less important than the New, and that is a very recent development in (protestant) Christianity. It would take some legnth to explain why.
There is no more pleasant food for the soul than the knowledge of truth. - Lactantius

BubbaSwitzler
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Posted 12/24/05 - 04:12 PM:	#6
philosophy wrote: To speak briefly, I think its origin is in the various Christian movements that considered the Old Testament less important than the New, and that is a very recent development in (protestant) Christianity. It would take some legnth to explain why. That seems plausible to me (it fits with other data points I have noticed). Do you know of any good books or articles that focus on this?
"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"

abba
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Posted 12/24/05 - 06:25 PM:	#7
I'm a "recent protestant" (even if I'm not doctrinaire), & I've never heard of it. Please give a reference.

Unisonus
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Posted 12/25/05 - 09:56 PM:	#8
Well, to make it pithy: how does a perfect being create an imperfection? A perfect secretary doesn't make typos. A perfect chef doesn't overcook. But a perfect creator makes imperfect creations? I'm sure He could. I am not saying that He shouldn't have that ability. But to put it to use, I think, would an imperfection on His part. No?
"...take care that your style and diction run musically, pleasantly, and plainly, with clear, proper, and well-placed words, setting forth your purpose to the best of your power, and putting your ideas intelligibly, without confusion or obscurity." - Miguel de Cervantes

Mariner
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Posted 12/26/05 - 02:59 AM:	#9
The pithy answer is that it is part of man's perfection that he should be able to fall .
"In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't." -- Blaise Pascal "The more I am by myself and alone, the more I have come to love myths" -- Aristotle in his later years

icxn
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Posted 12/26/05 - 06:22 AM:	#10
Mariner wrote: The pithy answer is that it is part of man's perfection that he should be able to fall . And there you have the answer: free will.
This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form. He who has not first turn away from wickedness, who is not tranquil and subdued and whose mind is not at peace, cannot attain Atman.- Katha Upanishad

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