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Global Warming

perseus
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Posted 05/18/07 - 09:35 AM:	#126
"For those who are not sure what to believe, here is our round-up of the 26 most common climate myths and misconceptions" http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth... Here is a complete listing of the articles in "How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic," http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics Stages of Denial 1 There's nothing happening 2 We don't know why it's happening 3 Climate change is natural 4 Climate change is not bad 5 Climate change can't be stopped And here is another assessment of the "Great Global Warming Swindle” http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html Edited by perseus on 05/18/07 - 09:54 AM
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

greenmagi
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Posted 05/18/07 - 12:11 PM: Subject: This post is brought to you by the letter Z...	#127
I'm doing my part. I drive a car. I don't usually recycle. I drive a Toyota, but those are great on fuel and emissions (kinda redundant; like cause & effect...fuel & emission). I like the letter Z. I put a line through the middle of mine. I also slash my Zeros. These tricks help prevent misreadings in the military. Anyway, were was I? Oh yeah... Zero fuel equals zero emissions...so that would mean S.U.V.'s are mean emission machines. Darn. But that's nothing! Just wait until every China home has two cars. Yikes! Luckily even libral (or conservatives/republicans) approximates put the limit of fossel fuels at about 40 years. The conservative (librals/democrats) estimates about 20 years. I'm going whith the porridge that Goldie ate, and say thirty years. Trying to do this with the world is tough. It's like daddy saying, "Now don't you go out and have crazy fun like I did, because now I regret it." The problem is, that the worse the environment problems get...the faster it will become worse. It is usually true of humans, that by the time one says, "Oh Shit," it's too late. Agents that are considered great, are those that have the greatest abilities of prediction. In other words, looking down your road to watch for obstacles, short-cuts, and dangers. Most people walk down the path of life with their eyes shut. That being said, I think we're screwed.
knowledge is power...power corrupts...study hard and be evil...Oblivion's End

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Posted 05/18/07 - 03:58 PM:	#128
I had a look at the assessment of the "Great Global Warming Swindle", and I still stand by the fact that the global warming theory is nothing more than society's latest religion, as well as an attack on capitalism. Frankly, I would wonder who this Bill Butler is. For all we know, he could be another moron being payed by the UN to slam anyone who challenges the global warming obsession. I have tried to have rational discussions with tons of people about the theory and the slightest devation on my part results in rage and irrationalism on their part. Man-made global warming is a lie, natural global warming is the truth. The lie is an excuse for some people without skill to make money and at the same time slam honest capitalists who just want to make a living. Granted, I wish that we were using hydrogen instead of gas and nuclear instead of oil and coal, but I am rather tired on this obsession over something that is rather insignificant (provided that it is true) compared to, say, Darfur, AIDS, or terrorism. perseus wrote: Stages of Denial 1 There's nothing happening 2 We don't know why it's happening 3 Climate change is natural 4 Climate change is not bad 5 Climate change can't be stopped How about: Stages of Deception 1. I believe in global warming. 2. A bunch of other people believe that global warming is true. 3. This means that global warming is true. 4. Any individual who challenges this is acting against the majority and therefore must be wrong. Fact of the matter is, one million people can say a stupid thing and it will still be stupid. Oh, last thing: Bill Butler wrote: ...I ask that you force Channel 4 (and any other directly supervised parties) to publicly apologize for presenting the program and force them to state that the presentation was not based on factual data. So we aren't allowed to state our views, but you are?
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Gramm
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Posted 05/18/07 - 08:07 PM:	#129
perseus wrote: Here is a complete listing of the articles in "How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic," http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics Stages of Denial 1 There's nothing happening 2 We don't know why it's happening 3 Climate change is natural 4 Climate change is not bad 5 Climate change can't be stopped Your preference for tools of propaganda reflect the underlining Junk Science position you support. But why should we be suprised? Political Pseudo~science, based on phoney consensus (aka Junk) science, with all its exaggerated scaremongering, fudging, political lies and outright distortion of facts, is no substitute for the hard won reality of empirical science. So, please alllow me to show you how easy it is to turn the propaganda tables on you. Here is what sums up the position of most Climate Change Doomsayers...and how (like you) they got there. Stages of Brain Washing 1 There's something bad happening to the Weather.... Humans are to blame. 2 I know it's happening because I saw Al Gore's film and I believe everything the Politiburo (IPCC) says. 3 Climate change is completely unnatural. Seasons, Solar variations, past Ice ages are all big lies. 4 Climate change is always bad. Western Capitalism is always bad. 5 Climate change can only be stopped when Bad Western Capitalism is stopped. 6 Climate Change is OK if your Industry is in China or India. Your economies are exempt. Gramm Edited by Gramm on 05/19/07 - 02:49 AM
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greenmagi
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Posted 05/19/07 - 05:54 AM: Subject: "The sky is falling...The sky is falling..." chicken little & me	#130
The anti-global-warming was begun by the conservative right in America, starting with Ragon and stretching through Bush Jr. (the bushwhackers). They started the anti-environmental movement for profits and more government controls. They viewed the E.P.A. as an enemy, and found 'evidence' to support ill founded beliefs. Global Warmings’ biggest enemies are the morons we have in the white house right now. The same ones started a war over Weapons of Mass Destruction (never found) with a country that wasn't connected to the 9-11 terrorists. Lots of other countries (8 others) have W.M.D.s and we don't mess with them, just as many other countries are in greater need of democracy and freedom (Africa). No, we are in the Middle East for Oil. I can't wait until the stuff runs out, and the faith-heads are back to throwing rocks at one another. But in the mean time, denial of the global warming pattern is just silly. Look at the amount of evidence on both sides. Read the findings. Even the flora and fauna are getting their bloom & mate schedules screwed up. We have destroyed over 20% of our coral reef with off shore dumping...which is even deadlier to all living things than global warming. We are totally raping this planet. And when I say we, I mean the men with money and power, which talk about freedoms and god and then exploit our air, water, and food. Leaders are supposed to look for our best interests…By the way, the Bushwhackers were in bed with the Religious Right because they supported the faulty belief that man could not destroy the earth until god returns. They had the answer they wanted, and then found a few scientists that would support it. Bad Science.
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perseus
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Posted 05/19/07 - 06:37 AM:	#131
greenmagi I'm glad to see there is still some clear thinking and common sense left in the Bible belt, it must be very frustrating living over there. I can sympathise, since I know someone who believes that the Earth is less than 10 000 years old and men didn't go to the moon. And yes he has just heard from someone who has watched the Global Warming swindle, what next? Gramm and Mr.Anonymous I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether Global Warming is mainly anthropogenic. To move this thread on will you agree that Global Warming is at least happening? I agree that there are other concerns other than global warming and Mr Anonymous has mentioned some of these. In the light of this are any mitigation measures justified (such as energy conservation and alternative fuels for example) at least this has the additional advantage of being less reliant on oil from the Middle East. How much do Americans pay for Gas once the defence spending is added on, perhaps almost as much as in the UK? Assuming that the climate changes, would it be realistic to get countries to sign up to some sort of insurance, where the beneficiaries of global warming fund those which suffer, or is this impractical?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

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Posted 05/19/07 - 09:45 AM:	#132
greenmagi wrote: The anti-global-warming was begun by the conservative right in America, starting with Ragon and stretching through Bush Jr. (the bushwhackers). They started the anti-environmental movement for profits and more government controls. They viewed the E.P.A. as an enemy, and found 'evidence' to support ill founded beliefs. According to The Great Global Warming Swindle, there were anti-man-made-global-warming individuals, many of which are highly intelligent, well qualified scientists. Since these people had the capability to counter the popular belief in its infancy, the media (seeing that they could profit from supporting this belief) made sure that they got no publicity whatsoever. Once the belief became firmly entrenched in society, the media could give the extreme-rightwings (who oppose the theory merely for political reasons) plenty of publicity, which gives the media more opportunity to slam them in front of the public. Oh, and greenmagi, Bush apparently seems to acknowledge the existance of man-made global warming, though this probably merely a political act too. Global Warmings’ biggest enemies are the morons we have in the white house right now. The same ones started a war over Weapons of Mass Destruction (never found) with a country that wasn't connected to the 9-11 terrorists. Lots of other countries (8 others) have W.M.D.s and we don't mess with them, just as many other countries are in greater need of democracy and freedom (Africa). No, we are in the Middle East for Oil. I can't wait until the stuff runs out, and the faith-heads are back to throwing rocks at one another. 1) As stated earlier, these guys are the biggest enemies because they are given tons of publicity. 2) I have no doubt that some people in the White House like Cheney wanted to increase their allies profits, but somehow I have the feeling the Bush really believes that what he is doing is right. Personally, I am glad that Saddam was overthrown and Iraq given a chance to be free. Unfortunately, Iraq has chosen not to be free, which is why I no longer support the war, in addition to some mistakes made by the administration. If Iraq really wanted to achieve freedom and happiness, I would say stay. But they don't, so I say transfer all Iraq troops to Afghanistan and take care of Al-Queda and the Taliban. But in the mean time, denial of the global warming pattern is just silly. Look at the amount of evidence on both sides. Read the findings. Even the flora and fauna are getting their bloom & mate schedules screwed up. We have destroyed over 20% of our coral reef with off shore dumping...which is even deadlier to all living things than global warming. We are totally raping this planet. And when I say we, I mean the men with money and power, which talk about freedoms and god and then exploit our air, water, and food. This sort of thing has happen all the time. This change happened in the medival warm period as well. The only reason why natural global warming now is more of a concern is a) The citizens of the first world countries are so wussy in general that they can't cope with such major changes in our climate and b) this will challenge the quality of our costal cities like Miami. This means that we will have to build higher quality port cities. Leaders are supposed to look for our best interests…By the way, the Bushwhackers were in bed with the Religious Right because they supported the faulty belief that man could not destroy the earth until god returns. They had the answer they wanted, and then found a few scientists that would support it. Bad Science. This is unimportant. America elected this administration and their term will expire in 2008. Yes, America chose this war, this policy, and the election was perfectly legal. Both of them. Suprisingly enough, the method that was used to solve the 2000 election was the Gore method, and it put Bush in power. If they used Bush's method, Gore would be in power. Oh, and greenmagi? I am deeply amazed that the most anti-religious fundamentalist individual (you) on PhilosophyForums can't recognize the religious funaticism present in the belief of man-made global warming. It seems that you don't have a problem with religious funaticism, just Christian funaticism, thereby making you hypocritical in this case. Unless I am wrong. perseus wrote: Gramm and Mr.Anonymous I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether Global Warming is mainly anthropogenic. To move this thread on will you agree that Global Warming is at least happening? Oh, it's happening...what I have been saying is that it has been happening naturally. I agree that there are other concerns other than global warming and Mr Anonymous has mentioned some of these. In the light of this are any mitigation measures justified (such as energy conservation and alternative fuels for example) at least this has the additional advantage of being less reliant on oil from the Middle East. How much do Americans pay for Gas once the defence spending is added on, perhaps almost as much as in the UK? I don't see why capitalism has to suffer because of the religious dogma of the UN and the radical environmentalists. Let the principle of supply and demand solve things. Assuming that the climate changes, would it be realistic to get countries to sign up to some sort of insurance, where the beneficiaries of global warming fund those which suffer, or is this impractical? I watch an episode of Penn & Teller's: Bullsh*t yesterday. Apparently the same environmentalist who are afraid of global warming are preventing any attempt to install new, clean, and extremely safe nuclear powerplants with very efficient waste desposal methods across the country to replace the coal and oil powerplants. Instead, they wish to use highly inefficient solar panels and wind power. And I should know that the currently used solar panels are useless because I've heard stories about solar panels that are of high quality, yet are not used. Then again, if there is a place where solar panels would be useful, it would be in the Sahara. I may not be a believer in man-made global warming, but I think that it would be a good idea for Africa's economy to turn the Sahara into a bunch of massive solar panels so Africa could sell electricity to Europe and the Middle East. Oh, and the same episode I watched test drived a hybrid car and found that the gas mileage of the car is barely any better than a regular car, not to mention that they could not fit a family of four and all the necessary luggage in the car either.
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Posted 05/20/07 - 02:26 AM:	#133
greenmagi wrote: The anti-global-warming was begun by the conservative right in America, starting with Ragon and stretching through Bush Jr. (the bushwhackers). They started the anti-environmental movement for profits and more government controls. They viewed the E.P.A. as an enemy, and found 'evidence' to support ill founded beliefs. Please Gm, if you have evidence to substantiate your claims, then back it up. greenmagi wrote: Global Warmings’ biggest enemies are the morons we have in the white house right now. The same ones started a war over Weapons of Mass Destruction (never found) with a country that wasn't connected to the 9-11 terrorists. Lots of other countries (8 others) have W.M.D.s and we don't mess with them, just as many other countries are in greater need of democracy and freedom (Africa). No, we are in the Middle East for Oil. I can't wait until the stuff runs out, and the faith-heads are back to throwing rocks at one another. You'll be waiting a very long time for the 'stuff to run out'. GM. Besides which, your attempt to compare one set of issues aka WOMD to AGW is an Inductive Fallacy. greenmagi wrote: But in the mean time, denial of the global warming pattern is just silly. What pattern is that ? greenmagi wrote: Look at the amount of evidence on both sides. Read the findings. Even the flora and fauna are getting their bloom & mate schedules screwed up. Who told you that...? Where did you read it...Proof please. For your imformation, "bloom and mate schedules" are more heavily influenced by the Moon,Tide and Sun .... Oh ... but I suppose so called Man Made Global Warming is knocking the Moon and Sun around too... greenmagi wrote: We have destroyed over 20% of our coral reef with off shore dumping...which is even deadlier to all living things than global warming. Which Coral Reef ? You speak of Coral reef singular...Time to dig out the National Geographic. greenmagi wrote: We are totally raping this planet. And when I say we, I mean the men with money and power, which talk about freedoms and god and then exploit our air, water, and food. That's right GM, like other posters in this debate. whenever there is lack the hard empirical evidence, the tendency is always reach for a packet of well worn cliches and general anti-capitalist clap trap. greenmagi wrote: Leaders are supposed to look for our best interests…By the way, the Bushwhackers were in bed with the Religious Right because they supported the faulty belief that man could not destroy the earth until god returns. They had the answer they wanted, and then found a few scientists that would support it. Bad Science. Yep, pretty much reads like the sort of idiotic dogma that many Anthropogenic Global Warming believers consider err...cough...'gospel'... As for leaders looking after our best interests ? Leaders are only really interested in looking after 'your interests' as long as such interests match their own. For the most part, Politicians interest is often dictated by the urge to 'seen' to be doing public good, even if they themselves think otherwise. Their only interested in 'being seen' to be doing things that make them popular. Its called getting on the band~wagon as well as riding the Gravy~Train. It has little or nothing to do with looking after 'your' interests. Want proof. Think of Al Gore's hypocrisy in relation to lighting up his Mansion. http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_1025... Gramm Edited by Gramm on 07/03/07 - 06:18 PM
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Posted 05/23/07 - 03:29 PM:	#134
Well written, Gramm. greenmagi wrote: Even the flora and fauna are getting their bloom & mate schedules screwed up. I should have responded to this in detail, though Gramm did make some good points. Still, I will add by saying this: greenmagi, why do you think that the behavior of nature is set in stone? Patterns do exist, but when larger patterns (like the activity of the sun) come into play, they override and change the smaller patterns. Only the highest patterns, the laws of physics, are solid. But then again, according to the theories of multiple universes, they might not always be solid. There is another point I would like to make: many global warming spokes men say that we must act because we are dependent on nature for survival. Well, that's the real problem, isn't it? We are too dependent on nature. Our goal should be to obtain independence from nature.
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Posted 05/24/07 - 01:24 AM: Subject: 17,800 Scientists say NO to Global Warming	#135
Thanks for your support Mr.Anonymous. If anyone is to believe the IPCC (as Perseus and others do so uncritically), then the whole claim that there is unilateral agreement between scientists over the causes of Global Warming is not to be questioned. They claim that over 2000 scientists agree... Of course, they fudge the figures, and have been caught lying, as well as adding signatories without consent or permission. What they (the IPCC) sweep under the carpet, is that there are plenty of scientists who have signed counter petitions claiming that the IPCC is wrong. In fact, according to this site, 19,700 have said so. http://digg.com/world_news/What_Consensus_Over_17... Needless to say, according the the Global Warming Doomsayers, they're all crackpots and loons, or paid up dupes of the oil cartel or part of a greater right wing conspiracy. http://www.oism.org/pproject/ And it's not the only petition. Below is the Leipzig petition. http://www.sovereignty.net/p/clim/leipzig97.htm Gramm Edited by Gramm on 05/24/07 - 05:45 AM
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Posted 05/24/07 - 07:29 AM:	#136
"Singer's "Leipzig Declaration on Global Climate Change" (1995 and 1997). Critics point out that most of the signatories lack credentials in the specific field of climate research or even physical science in general.[34] Followup interviews found at least twelve signers who denied having signed the Declaration or had never heard of it." "The "Oregon Petition," which was circulated in 1998 by physicist Frederick Seitz and contains 17,800 signatures. Critics point out that many of the signatories of the Petition lack a background in climatology[36][37] and that the petition itself mentions only "catastrophic heating" and not the broader issue of global warming." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy In 2005, Scientific American reported: “ Scientific American took a sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community. ” In a 2005 op-ed in the Hawaii Reporter, Todd Shelly wrote: “ In less than 10 minutes of casual scanning, I found duplicate names (Did two Joe R. Eaglemans and two David Tompkins sign the petition, or were some individuals counted twice?), single names without even an initial (Biolchini), corporate names (Graybeal & Sayre, Inc. How does a business sign a petition?), and an apparently phony single name (Redwine, Ph.D.). These examples underscore a major weakness of the list: there is no way to check the authenticity of the names. Names are given, but no identifying information (e.g., institutional affiliation) is provided. Why the lack of transparency? ” In May 1998 the Seattle Times wrote: “ Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell." Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "It's fake," he said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition Edited by Alayth on 05/24/07 - 07:35 AM. Reason: Forgot a necessary part of the quote!

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Posted 05/24/07 - 08:16 AM:	#137
I'm not a science professor or anything but I do know a bit about global warming. I will say that it is definitely happening. Every scientist agrees that over the last 150 years, especially the last 50, greenhouse gas levels and average temperatures have been rising. If one looks at a graph of the temperatures over the last 15 years specifically, the line representing average temperature is escalating at such a fast rate that the line appears to be vertical. It is apparent that temperatures are rising faster and higher than ever before. A lot of "non-believers" are saying that the effects of global warming, if it does "exist", won't come about soon. In some respects, this is true. Over the last few years, our oceans have been acting as giant heat-absorbers. They have been trapping millions tons of carbon-dioxide and delaying some of the drastic effects of warming. But scientists agree that by 2030, the oceans will become so saturated with CO2 that it will start building up quickly in our atmosphere and the effects will come about rapidly without warning. I'll finish later...
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Posted 05/24/07 - 08:40 AM:	#138
The earth naturally had an ice age, so why couldn't we have a steam age?? Who says this is not what is supposed to happen??
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Posted 05/24/07 - 08:45 AM:	#139
Alayth wrote: The petition listed ......"Dr. Halliwell." Ah now he must know what he's talking about, wasn't he a researcher at Ice Station Zebra For what good it will do Scientific Response to “The Great Global Warming Swindle http://www.btplc.com/ClimateChange/Learnmore/Book... Regarding Mr Anonymous and his comment I don't see why capitalism has to suffer because of the religious dogma of the UN and the radical environmentalists. Let the principle of supply and demand solve things This might work in terms of oil and possibly natural gas, but not coal and oil shale. There is so much of this, enough to cook the planet. The Sahara idea sounds good, since at least the supply is when the demand is. However, I'm not aware of any solar station which is even nearly as economic as Coal. If left up to the market we would all be burning coal and gas, no nuclear and certainly no renewables except hydro. Even with some hydro projects there is a lot of methane production from rotting vegetation. Perhaps our best bet is the production of Biofuels from Algae, although I am not sure how much energy it will take for the conversion to high grade fuels suitable for modern engines. That's the main problem with present Biofuels, corn in particular, it is very energy intensive to produce, possibly taking more energy than it supplies in some cases
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

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Posted 05/24/07 - 08:48 AM:	#140
Alekhine wrote: The earth naturally had an ice age, so why couldn't we have a steam age?? Who says this is not what is supposed to happen?? Well, it's questionable what impact such an age would have on us (how would a "steam age" affect us and the environment?). If you are implying that global warming is a natural phenomenon and humans don't have anything to do with it, natural variation is something which is taken into account with the models used to try to determine whether humans are responsible for at least some of the recent warming.

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Posted 05/24/07 - 02:44 PM:	#141
Alayth - Would you mind stop saying "scientists say" or "scientists claim" or any other such claims? Not all of the scientists of the world agree with the theory of man-made global warming, just the ones that want to get payed more. There is definately money to be made, and the "evil" capitalists aren't the ones making it: the people who promote the global warming hype are. And don't get started in with the notion that these are the reputable scientists, they are the scientists that choose to conform to society's new religion and thereby are promoted by the media. And no, we are not responsible in the slightest for any of the recent warming. We don't produce nearly as much C02 as that of nature. perseus - I actually have a friend who recruits scientists for research into high quality solar panels, ones that work far better than the ones featured in the "Global Warming Swindle", let alone any that are employed in large amounts. In any event, hydrogen is going to be the way for automobiles. Clean and existant in infinite possible amounts. Ajax the 8jaxm - I keep saying this over and over again: global warming is happening, but has happened many times in history, none of which are the result of human activities. You need to look back much further than just fifteen years in order to know of past warmings and ice ages. Ever heard of the medival warm period?
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To
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Posted 05/25/07 - 04:06 AM:	#142
I'm not taking a position on whether it's true or not... The thing that bugs me is the lack of underlying data. Sure there's plenty of info on what's happening, ice melting, CO2 levels rising, but -for example a handful of recent articles in science magazines. 1. If the Greenland ice cap melts, sea levels will rise by 7 m. Why???? Ok - that's an easy one that you can work out for yourself. Taking the ice volume, and the area of the sea, I got 7.5m. Multiply by 9/10 for the ratio of water to ice denisty, and your there. 2. The temperature will rise by 2,, 10, 5 degrees in the next x years. OK, but there's never any detail on the mathematics; no formula to support these arguments. (Yeah I know, it's from a computer model, and it's really complicated 3. Global warming will cause the earth to spin slightly faster, just like an ice skater who pulls his arms in close, and spins faster. Yes I understand the physics but why/how will the earths mass move closer to the axis. No explanation can I find. 4. Due to the heat-sump effects of the oceans, global warming will continue for 50. Yes I get the idea, but why/ how d'they get 50 years. I tried to work this one out using the calorific value of salt water etc - hopelessly beyond me - but I bet I'd understand it if someone told me how it's done. But no - no fundamental info on that anywhere. [left]This really frustrates me. All these authouritative predictions that I have to take on trust. I'm not saying I think they're wrong. I'd like the opportunity to figure it out myself.[/left] o8o Another thing - the IPCC report. If I was bluffing in an exam, or a legal case, trying to give the impression that my predictions were underpinned by good mathematics, when in reality they were 99% guesswork, I too would go for quantity rather than quality; try and bore the reader into submission.

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Posted 05/25/07 - 05:21 AM: Subject: "If you believe we put a man on the moon..." R.E.M. & Me	#143
perseus wrote: greenmagi I'm glad to see there is still some clear thinking and common sense left in the Bible belt, it must be very frustrating living over there. I can sympathise, since I know someone who believes that the Earth is less than 10 000 years old and men didn't go to the moon. And yes he has just heard from someone who has watched the Global Warming swindle, what next? Thank you. And yes, it is difficult in the South. The educated here are still trying to get the Rebel Flag off the capital grounds. It's even worse for atheists. I might as well introduce myself as satan as tell someone I don't believe in gods. But I don't believe we've been to the moon, although I wouldn't exactly say I believe we haven't either. But given the evidence, I lean towards the belief that the U.S. did not infact go to the moon, and instead were cheating to win the space race with Russia. I'm withholding conviction until someone can get there 'again.'
knowledge is power...power corrupts...study hard and be evil...Oblivion's End

greenmagi
the man

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Posted 05/25/07 - 06:12 AM: Subject: "Look THAT up in your Funk and Wagnall's." Dan Rowan & Me (*laugh in)	#144
Gramm wrote: nothing much If I spent only a quarter of the time I allow myself here, searching down the information from my books and websites, then I would only have time to post one or two things a week... which would not make me very happy... which is why I'm here. Also, if Mariner has taught me anything, it is; no matter what evidence I give to someone that disagrees with me, it won't matter. If they don't like it, they will either just deny it or look up some obscure counter claim. Nearly everything I've said is true (*although I'll never confess which parts), if not over simplified. I give enough information in every post that you may easily track it down yourself. At any rate, providing evidence is not what I am about. If someone doesn't like it, they can either look it up or bugger off. You have already dismissed what I have said without any search, based on your personal beliefs. If anything I say bothers you, then you should search it out and discover something about yourself. I'm not really a "liberal" or a "conservative." I’m a Plato Republican. I am a registered republican too, and I voted for Bush the first time...when I didn't know what an idiot he is. But I was still an optimistic and naive Marine at the time. I also researched environmentalism and the religious right as part of one of my senior seminars. It was during this project that I realized how screwed were all are. It’s not anything like the tree huggers claim, and it is sure as hell nothing like what the religious right claim. The Earth is powerful, and it has it’s swings… but we aren’t helping… and there are things we could do to save our @$$e$, but we are not. The human drama is too compelling. At least Mr. Anonymous gives great counters... that while I may disagree with him on inturpretations and his choice of arguments, he is, at most times, a worthy bane. Edited by greenmagi on 05/25/07 - 06:20 AM
knowledge is power...power corrupts...study hard and be evil...Oblivion's End

Alayth
Graduate

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Posted 05/25/07 - 06:27 AM:	#145
Mr.Anonymous wrote: Alayth - Would you mind stop saying "scientists say" or "scientists claim" or any other such claims? Umm, I'm sorry, but where did I say this? I scanned over my posts, and have absolutely no idea what you might be misreading.

greenmagi
the man

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Posted 05/25/07 - 06:29 AM: Subject: "all the king's horses, and all the king's men, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again..."	#146
Yes it has happened often in history. However, never so rapidly or so extreme has it happened. We have just experienced the hottest spring in recorded human history. That information should make anyone pause. Yes, I admit that global warming and cooling is a 'round robin,' but something different is happening, and the greatest change has been mankind’s domination of the Earth. Balance is a fragile thing, and we are tipping it. I wouldn't say that we can even hope to fix it in the next decade, but by the time we stop quipping about it... it will already be too late. When presented with the evidence most people say either; we won't be around to worry about it or God won't let that happen until he's ready to destroy the Earth. Both are silly things to say. Especially, from an Atheists' point of view. Mr.Anonymous wrote: Ajax the 8jaxm - I keep saying this over and over again: global warming is happening, but has happened many times in history, none of which are the result of human activities. You need to look back much further than just fifteen years in order to know of past warmings and ice ages. Ever heard of the medival warm period?
knowledge is power...power corrupts...study hard and be evil...Oblivion's End

Ajax the 8jax
Orangutan

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Posted 05/25/07 - 06:57 AM:	#147
I do realize that there have been several warming periods in the past. I focused on the last 15 years because I wanted to say that the temperatures over the last 15 years have substantially surpassed the global temperatures during the warming periods. Sorry, I didn't get to address that in my last post. But I am aware of the past warming periods. My point is that the current warming has already surpassed the other warming periods drastically and threatens to continue skyrocketing.
This is my signature.

Alayth
Graduate

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Posted 05/25/07 - 07:06 AM:	#148
Mr.Anonymous wrote: We don't produce nearly as much C02 as that of nature. Sources?

perseus
Professor

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Posted 05/25/07 - 08:45 AM:	#149
Mr.Anonymous wrote: perseus - I actually have a friend who recruits scientists for research into high quality solar panels, ones that work far better than the ones featured in the "Global Warming Swindle", let alone any that are employed in large amounts. In any event, hydrogen is going to be the way for automobiles. Clean and existant in infinite possible amounts. Well I work in the vehicle related sector, and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a commercially viable method of generating hydrogen which is carbon free, or for a commercially viable car which can use fuel cells. Hydrogen is best viewed as an energy carrier like electricity rather than a fuel. One of the best critiques of hydrogen I have found is here http://www.oilcrisis.com/hydrogen/crea.htm
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

perseus
Professor

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Posted 05/25/07 - 08:56 AM:	#150
greenmagi wrote: But I don't believe we've been to the moon Your Joking Eh? Either that or there are some seriously infectious memes in your area of the world! http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

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