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Galaxy arms
going inside or outside ?

Galaxy arms

llanquihue
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M104.jpg
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Posted 03/22/08 - 09:19 PM: Subject: Galaxy arms	#1
Do you think the arms of the galaxies are moving inside or outside ? Usually we have heard about how a Galaxy is formed but if we realize how do they move we can reach to another theory and maybe no need for dark mater ? Edited by llanquihue on 03/22/08 - 09:55 PM
Attached Files: M74.jpg (208 KB, 9 downloads) M74-b.jpg (34 KB, 7 downloads) NGC 3370.jpg (71 KB, 5 downloads)

Timothy
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Posted 03/22/08 - 09:54 PM:	#2
From what little contemporary astronomy I know, the arms move towards the center of the galaxy, as the mass concentrated at the center has a major gravitatorial pull (by "bending space" in a way similar to a cone). Everything spinning around the galaxy's center is thus being gradually pulled towards it.
_____________________ "I think I'll stop here." -- Andrew Wiles immediately after presenting the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, Cambridge, 23 June 1993

llanquihue
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Posted 03/23/08 - 05:15 AM:	#3
Thanks Timothy, From what little contemporary astronomy I know, This is my point. Now, without any prejudice and without knowing what you have read about, can you please take a look at the images and tell me how do you believe are the galaxies arms are moving?

Timothy
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Posted 03/23/08 - 10:33 AM:	#4
I cannot help seeing them as being pulled towards the center. A new theory based on a different motion would certainly require more evidence, and to explain a lot more phenomena as our current theory does... What do you have in mind?
_____________________ "I think I'll stop here." -- Andrew Wiles immediately after presenting the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, Cambridge, 23 June 1993

llanquihue
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Posted 03/23/08 - 02:17 PM:	#5
As opposite to the current models I see the arms formed by matter being expulsed from the center of the Galaxy so the arms are flowing outside the Galaxy. This way Galaxies would have on their center " Small Bangs " (as simmilar as the one Bing Bang), and we should not have only one Big Bang for the entire Universe. As I understand the current models suppose all the mass is rotating towards the center of the Galaxies buy this model has the problem that the expected velocity for the outer sotating stars should be lower than they really are. So to explain why do this happens science community have introduced the concept of a dark matter that compensates the gravity from the center of the Galaxy. No dark matter have being found so far. Please take a look at the attached rotational curve. In were is presented a " Rotation curve of a typical spiral galaxy: predicted (A) and observed (B). Dark matter can explain the velocity curve having a "flat" appearance out to a large radius " If we believe that all the Galactic stars are rotating towards the center of the Galaxy, we do need a dark mater to explain this velocity curve. If we see the stars flowing outside from the center of the Galaxy, we do not need dark matter as this curve is the logical one. Please also take look at the attached Barred Spiral Galaxy NGC 1300. I see no way if mass is gravitating towards the center to have it changed it's velocity into straight line towards it's center as we see in this picture. By the contrary if we think that matter is being expulsed from the center we can think of a big expulsion with acceleration and after this sort of explosion the stars continues on a uniform speed separating from the center of the Galaxy. This simmilar to the artificial fires were you see a first explosion with acceleration and afterwars the particles continues in constant speed before they start falling due to the gravity. In this case the stars do not fell again because due to it's inicial propulsion they have reached and passed the escape speed so even thow they are within the gravitational field of the galaxy, so curving their velocity, they continue separating from it's center. Edited by llanquihue on 03/23/08 - 02:41 PM
Attached Files: Velocity Curve.JPG (6 KB, 4 downloads) Barred Spiral Galaxy NGC 1300.jpg (32 KB, 3 downloads)

Kwalish Kid
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Posted 03/24/08 - 04:22 PM:	#6
First thing first. The arms do not "move". The arms are formed by compression waves in the galaxy. Everything in the galaxy orbits the centre, however, the movement of the arms themselves is going to be different because they are formed by the differences in density in the galaxy moving back and forth and creating the patterns. llanquihue wrote: As opposite to the current models I see the arms formed by matter being expulsed from the center of the Galaxy so the arms are flowing outside the Galaxy. This way Galaxies would have on their center " Small Bangs " (as simmilar as the one Bing Bang), and we should not have only one Big Bang for the entire Universe.[/quote] But not a new one, I note. As I understand the current models suppose all the mass is rotating towards the center of the Galaxies buy this model has the problem that the expected velocity for the outer sotating stars should be lower than they really are. So to explain why do this happens science community have introduced the concept of a dark matter that compensates the gravity from the center of the Galaxy. Actually, the idea that the individual stars in the galaxies are rotating around the centre just like particles in a normal collection of matter is what makes predictions about these orbital speeds should be, in both Newtonian Mechanics and Relativistic Mechanics (at this level, they're pretty close, usually). The difference in the actual rotation speeds and the predicted rotations speeds is part of the evidential support for dark matter. (NB: the stars also don't seem to have speeds showing that they are moving away from the centre of the galaxy.) No dark matter have being found so far. Well, yes, if you discount all of the data in galaxy curves, in gravitational lensing, in supernovae observations, in galaxy distribution observations, and in the cosmic background radiation observations, then no dark matter has been found. Please take a look at the attached rotational curve. In were is presented a " Rotation curve of a typical spiral galaxy: predicted (A) and observed (B). Dark matter can explain the velocity curve having a "flat" appearance out to a large radius " If we believe that all the Galactic stars are rotating towards the center of the Galaxy, we do need a dark mater to explain this velocity curve. If we see the stars flowing outside from the center of the Galaxy, we do not need dark matter as this curve is the logical one. Maybe. We'd have to see, ahem, the math. Show that and your Nobel is waiting.
_____________________ "Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P "A fishnet is made up of a lot more holes than strings, but you can't therefore argue that the net doesn't exist. Just ask the fish." - Jeffrey Kluger "…Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." -Ben Stein

llanquihue
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Posted 04/10/08 - 08:12 PM:	#7
Do you know a place were new theories can be submitted ?

Kwalish Kid
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Posted 04/11/08 - 05:44 AM:	#8
New theories can be submitted to any scientific journal on the subject. If you are not aware of these journals, then I can guarantee that your new theory will not be in an acceptable form. Indeed, I can guarantee that there are important pieces of evidence that your new theory should take into account but doesn't.
_____________________ "Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P "A fishnet is made up of a lot more holes than strings, but you can't therefore argue that the net doesn't exist. Just ask the fish." - Jeffrey Kluger "…Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." -Ben Stein

llanquihue
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Posted 04/13/08 - 02:46 PM:	#9
Thanks, Of course this theory has important pieces to take into account and confront, also as you mentioned before some formulas can be presented and inferred. I know. I really would like to start devoting to Physics as was my initial interest but to change from the route I started years ago is not easy. Any thoughts on this way would be appreciated

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