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Free Will / Determinism
How can Free Will exist?

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Free Will / Determinism

treemanshope
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Posted 10/31/09 - 07:30 PM:	#21
reincarnated wrote: “not clearly defined” may simply be a limit of our knowledge (epistemology), it does not follow that there is necessarily any fundamental uncertainty or indeterminism (ontology). Hence all this is so far compatible with ontic determinism. The question is how is it is compatible. The limitations of knowledge are in the procedures of distinction. If you allow for a degree of autonomy and a limited role in its own organization then you can begin to see a self-involvedness because it handles its medium according to its internal structure and this becomes the predominant phenomena in determinism. What determines perception is not a matter of what gets into the system like an instruction for a man made device but rather perception has to do with how the system peceives itself in the sense that its own entanglement is key understanding what will happen to it. Why is this a “problem with determinism”? How does any of this show that determinism is false? Once again, the observation of order or disorder is simply an epistemic perspective of the world, apparent disorder does not necessarily indicate ontic indeterminism. Determinism as a way to describe the orientation of the temporal evolution of living systems like when your are determining what will happen to an egg from its fertilization to the final stage always brings with it the idea of final causes. This becomes a problem when you are dealing with living systems because what is implied behind is some vital force or whatever, something like a conscious will. But now, the idea of a computer program is proposed and looks perfect fit to give an operational content to the concept of teleonomy (end seeking machine.) Yes, it has some important operational value but it still has a weak explanatory value, because it still has some conscious finality to it. And of course consciousness finality in nature is a bad hypothesis for many reasons. I don’t disagree, but I don’t see what any of this has to do with determinism or lack of determinism? Again, the question for freewill is, how is it determined?
The words of peace are just words, it is man that gives them flesh. Bring peace into the material world. Or, bring something else. treemanshope.

I kind of like boxes
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Posted 11/02/09 - 03:51 AM:	#22
It seems like this thread is attempting to pin down the true essence of human choice. Although it is very fun to serch for such truths, my experience of philosophy is that these essences are doomed not to be found. This is because we can find sound arguments for most theories - no matter how strange they are. However, all fancy facts and entangled theories aside, I have found that when I have told myself that the sound arguments for determinism are true, I have ended up making poorer choices then when I have assumed that I am bound to free will (my intuitive impression of free will). And therefore I now assume that I have got free will. Its only belif, I know, but it is belif based on logic deduction and it is simply pretty nice. Hope this way of thinking can be of some use for you
"Cardboard box" is a misnomer, as what most people know as cardboard boxes are actually made of corrugated fiberboard, not cardboard.

Klas Wullt
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Posted 11/03/09 - 12:54 AM:	#23
You are all wrong. So wrong. You have entirely ignored the metastrategic and metacogntive problem of the question. The metawhat! The metadefinitions! One hand we have metadeterminability and on the other hand meta-free will. What does one mean with determibability? Some could say that random variable that are not fully determinable are determinable in so far they can be defined and measured. For example if free will is replaced with random will one might see that either as deterministic will becouse it is random and not chosen. Or one could define free will as random variable that control free will. Another problem is that if something is unknowable but not random. What defines Determinstic will? Each individual is isolated from influence from society but 100 controled by imput here and now? Descartes only seem to figure that if we compare humans with dead object humans seem to have authority and thus free will over all non human factors.

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Posted 11/03/09 - 07:05 AM:	#24
Klas Wullt wrote: You are all wrong. So wrong. Could you be more specific, and tell me what part of my argument is inadequate? You have entirely ignored the metastrategic and metacogntive problem of the question. Yes I have. I deliberately chose to focus on the strategicaly cognitive problem of the question, insted of the metaproblems. This is because, although such questions can be of much use in some contexts, they are not necessarily needed here. And for someone who is Zukros wrote: new to philosophy as a whole It can probably be nice with an easier answer. I'm not rejecting your metaphysical comments, I just thought it would be adequate with an existentialistic alternative on how to deal with this question as well. In this way I go one step out and ask why we need to ask this question and how we can deal with the fact that there is no answer; if you are as hung up on meta-anyting as it seems you can always call this the metamaneuver or something. So to give my answer to Zukros question once again: However, lately I have been wondering increasingly how the concept of Free Will can be sustained without belief in the Supernatural. If I tell myself that free will exist, I make better choices. I belive this is good enough reason to accept free will. The concept of free will can probably only be sustained by belif. It is simple, logical and empirical; and no mention of any supernatural. Edited by I kind of like boxes on 11/05/09 - 10:28 AM. Reason: typo
"Cardboard box" is a misnomer, as what most people know as cardboard boxes are actually made of corrugated fiberboard, not cardboard.

kunfuzed
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Posted 11/05/09 - 05:01 PM:	#25
I am very troubled with the concept of free will, with or without the existence of the supernatural. When I look at an action, I see the reasons for a person choosing to take that course, then I look at the reasons for those reasons. Eventually I come to the conclusion that eventually the reasons come to things such as neurons, genetics, and experiences, which are all out of one's control. Then I reason that actions are out of one's control, and therefore one have no will in deciding their actions. Edited by kunfuzed on 11/05/09 - 06:52 PM

reincarnated
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Posted 11/05/09 - 11:40 PM:	#26
I kind of like boxes wrote: If I tell myself that free will exist, I make better choices. I belive this is good enough reason to accept free will. The concept of free will can probably only be sustained by belif. It is simple, logical and empirical; and no mention of any supernatural. You seem to be saying that free will does not exist, only "a belief in free will" exists, but at the same time you are saying that the benefit to you of this belief is good enough reason to "accept free will"? What do you mean by "accept free will"? Do you mean "accept that free will exists" (which would seem to be contradictory), or do you just mean "accept that my belief in free will exists"? If I tell myself that I will not die today, I make better choices. I believe this is good enough reason to accept that I will never die. Makes sense?
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

I kind of like boxes
...and snow, and stuff.

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Posted 11/08/09 - 05:34 AM:	#27
I am not saying that free will does not exist, and I am not saying the opposite; I only mean that I will never know the answer, and therefore belif is the only remaining way to reach an answer, that I can see. First of all: my goal is not to unveil some ockult truth about our universe. I simply wish to make my time here as pleasant as possible. So these arguments are very subjective and practical. If you want to find out how things really work, then my comments are useless. By "accept free will" I mean my intuitive understanding of "accept free will". Perhaps not of much help for you, but it is the most precice answer I can give. I'll try to give a less accurate answer though: I mean that I am resposible for all my choices and that I could have chosen differently in most cases. reincarnated wrote: or do you just mean "accept that my belief in free will exists"? Yeah, something down that alley. Perhaps: "Accept that my belif in free will is the best solution I have got" If I tell myself that I will not die today, I make better choices. I believe this is good enough reason to accept that I will never die. Makes sense? Does not make sense if you want to find out the truth about your own mortatlity, but it makes sense if you want to live your life in a nice lie. With lie I mean something that is not an established truth, so I could say theoy instead. Since the truth about free will is out of reach we have to choose between several theories when we think about it, and this one is the one I prefer.
"Cardboard box" is a misnomer, as what most people know as cardboard boxes are actually made of corrugated fiberboard, not cardboard.

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