Evidence of Revelation: Philosophy Forums

Philosophy Forums » Philosophy of Religion » Evidence of Revelation » Evidence of Revelation

Evidence of Revelation
A Problem of Religious Epistemology

Page: 1 2

Evidence of Revelation

thewatcher
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Total Topics: 14
Total Posts: 240

Posted 07/01/09 - 04:19 PM: Subject: Evidence of Revelation	#1
This has come up in several of the topics already being discussed on this forum, but given that those threads seem to be going in different directions, it might be wortwhile to give this topic its own thread. My question is simple: What, if anything, would constitute a verifiable empirical demonstration of the existence of God (and, in particular, of the God of the Abrahamic faiths)? The context for this question is to be found in Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic. To this I tend to add a Corollary(let's just call it, the Watcher Corollary) that runs as follows: Given Clarke's Third Law, any apparant display of magic is, potentially, in fact (at least potentially) a display of advanced technology. Add this problem to the elsewhere mentioned observation that natural forces could potentially appear miraculous until they are better understood and it would seem that we find ourselves in a very odd epistemological quandry with respect to revelation. Therefore, the question boils down to whether or not miraculous demonstrations of God's existence are, in principle, possible (given the scientific/realist/reductionist paradigm).

xzJoel
Bio-clump

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Total Topics: 32
Total Posts: 842

Posted 07/01/09 - 04:29 PM:	#2
For starters, how would you distinguish god from non-god? That is to say, in what way is it possible to say that the existent thing that corresponds to your measurement is god? A ruler measures distance, a photometer light, etc. What instrument do you know of that measures for God? Are you asking for a compelling argument about how a god particle holds things together and somehow is more appropriately called "the God of Abraham" rather than a Higgs boson particle? Most pressingly, if science is atomistic (and I think one would have to accept this given your realist/reductionist reference), could any collection of atoms ever be arranged such that they become God? If the God of Abraham must both be the God of Miracles and the Philosopher's God, no physical god could ever fit the bill for that of the Philosopher's God. If the God of Abraham is only the God of Miracles and nothing more, is that really the God that you care to demonstrate or give the title of God?
Make a joyous noise onto the lord... Not a good one, just a joyous one.

thewatcher
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Total Topics: 14
Total Posts: 240

Posted 07/02/09 - 11:06 AM:	#3
That is exactly my concern. I suppose you could broaden the consideration somewhat. Suppose an angel appears with a flaming sword and begins walking on water, turning water to wine and stones into bread and so on. How would we know that this is not merely high technology at work? Likewise, how would we know that this angel corresponds to the angels described in the Abrahamic faiths and is not, say, a Bodhisatva, an ancient Greek god etc.?

Aetixintro
Concepts and descriptions

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Jul 12, 2008

Total Topics: 35
Total Posts: 391

Posted 07/02/09 - 11:20 AM:	#4
This reminds me of scene from Babylon 5 (I like sci-fi a lot!) where Amb. Kosh of the Vorlons is forced to take on an angelic appearance and use this to save Sheridan(?) who is falling to his death. The result of this dramatic scene is that every being on Babylon 5 walks around talking about the appearance according to their belief. Basically, if I get to see an angel with a flaming sword, I probably don't care what belief it comes from. I will be in awe.
Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want

thewatcher
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Total Topics: 14
Total Posts: 240

Posted 07/02/09 - 11:34 AM:	#5
Aetixintro wrote: This reminds me of scene from Babylon 5 (I like sci-fi a lot!) where Amb. Kosh of the Vorlons is forced to take on an angelic appearance and use this to save Sheridan(?) who is falling to his death. The result of this dramatic scene is that every being on Babylon 5 walks around talking about the appearance according to their belief. Basically, if I get to see an angel with a flaming sword, I probably don't care what belief it comes from. I will be in awe. That might be a fair answer. Marion suggests that religious experiences are "saturated", that is, that they are of such a quality that they transcend the qualifications of epistemology and produce a certainty that one has experienced something unmistakably divine (in the case of revelation), horrific, etc. It has long seemed to me, however, that there are issues associated with viewing perception that way (that is, at viewing our experiences as essentially pre-conceptual).

slap
User of Mental Cosmetics

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jul 04, 2009

Total Topics: 7
Total Posts: 100

Posted 07/05/09 - 06:51 PM:	#6
I saw a video on youtube a while ago about this. It was an atheist listing somethings that would make him either strongly consider his belief, or change his belief. The only one I can remember was if aliens from another world were found to have an identical religion. That would be strong evidence. More evidence might be continued verifiable of experience of God. While we might posit auxiliary hypotheses(High technology, etc.) we would still have much more reason to believe in God. For example if God repeatedly appeared to all of mankind repeatedly we would be much more justified in believing in God. Edited by slap on 07/05/09 - 09:39 PM
Harm(For a person)= 1-Happiness/% or relevant knowledge known

thewatcher
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Total Topics: 14
Total Posts: 240

Posted 07/07/09 - 01:39 PM:	#7
slap wrote: I saw a video on youtube a while ago about this. It was an atheist listing somethings that would make him either strongly consider his belief, or change his belief. The only one I can remember was if aliens from another world were found to have an identical religion. That would be strong evidence. More evidence might be continued verifiable of experience of God. While we might posit auxiliary hypotheses(High technology, etc.) we would still have much more reason to believe in God. For example if God repeatedly appeared to all of mankind repeatedly we would be much more justified in believing in God. What would constitute verifiable experience of God? And why would High Technology be an auxiliary hypothesis rather than a primary one? As for the idea of aliens with an identical religion, I fail to see how this would avoid any of the problems I mentioned. Why would we conclude God from such a thing rather than, say, advanced aliens claiming to be God (as in the Stargate series, for instance)? In some form or other, this argument has been around for decades, with theists noting similarities between the spiritual beliefs of isolated cultural groups and so on. I have yet to meet an atheist who was convinced by this sort of speculation.

ciceronianus
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 20, 2008
Location: USA

Total Topics: 11
Total Posts: 1021

Last Blog: Trials in which "Failure is not an option"

Posted 07/07/09 - 02:15 PM:	#8
I suppose the actual occurence of the Second Coming of Jesus as detailed in the Bible and other recognized christian texts might present some evidence in favor of that particular version of the abrahamic God. It would seem unlikely that some aliens would read the appropriate texts and decide to mimic them, sending some to hell, some to heaven, just for a lark, or for some other unknown purpose. But I doubt there is such a thing as absolute verification in this case.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

thewatcher
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Total Topics: 14
Total Posts: 240

Posted 07/07/09 - 02:24 PM:	#9
ciceronianus wrote: I suppose the actual occurence of the Second Coming of Jesus as detailed in the Bible and other recognized christian texts might present some evidence in favor of that particular version of the abrahamic God. It would seem unlikely that some aliens would read the appropriate texts and decide to mimic them, sending some to hell, some to heaven, just for a lark, or for some other unknown purpose. But I doubt there is such a thing as absolute verification in this case. Whence your doubt on the subject? I can think of several interesting scenarios under which alien intelligences, time travelers, other deities, other supernatural beings and so on would employ just such a deception. One of these can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Due_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) Likewise, of course, there is the aforementioned Stargate scenario: Religion could be of alien origin to begin with. Why, then, could we conclude that even a to the letter bearing out of the Second Coming was evidence for God? Indeed, the scientific viewpoint would, it would seem, of necessity conclude that scenarios like these are more likely than something like the actual existence of God (if we are to invoke Ockham's razor {sic}). Edited by thewatcher on 07/07/09 - 02:29 PM

ciceronianus
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 20, 2008
Location: USA

Total Topics: 11
Total Posts: 1021

Last Blog: Trials in which "Failure is not an option"

Posted 07/07/09 - 03:34 PM:

#10

thewatcher wrote:

Whence your doubt on the subject? I can think of several interesting scenarios under which alien intelligences, time travelers, other deities, other supernatural beings and so on would employ just such a deception.

Well, as I noted, I don't think absolute verification can be achieved in this case. One could always maintain as well that an evil, or perhaps merely mischievous, demon or whatever would just be making it appear that the Second Coming is taking place, while in fact we are imprisoned in the world we now inhabit, where Michael Jackson and his acolytes--and nothing else--are always, always on CNN.

But, I think it is more likely if the Second Coming actually happens it will not be the work of aliens. Much as I enjoy The Next Generation and Stargate, I don't think the fact that certain of their episodes entertained such a scenario does much to recommend it. I think it is most probable that our religions are peculiarly human creations, and not the work of aliens who, for whatever reason, traveled to earth to create our religions, wittingly or otherwise.

"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

Page: 1 2

Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.