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Erotica
Therapy or Provocation?

Erotica

jaoman
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Posted 04/08/08 - 12:30 AM: Subject: Erotica	#1
Over the last several months, I've been in a few interesting discussion about the way in which erotica affects people. Let me be clear, I'm not talking about Barbie and Ken doing it missionary. I'm talking about controversial issues such as rape, incest, pedophilia, and other themes that are considered seriously taboo in the flesh. For the most part, the people that I've talked to have been of the opinion that stimulating forbidden fantasies encourages people to go out and do the deed. As if it's a stepping stone on a ladder of corruption. Personally, I find this view to be untenable. It takes a very different kind of gumption to fantasize something and do it live. It also takes a very strong disunity with social behavior to aggravate another person in such a manner. I argue that any person who reads controversial erotica by anything other than accident already has the urge in them and that if s/he then acts upon it, this act represents a break with empathy or a magnitude of the urge on such a scale that the act would take place irregardless of the story. Let's face it, there are countless perverts who rape and take advantage without having read fiction along that vein and also thousands of readers (myself included) that read these stories and enjoy them without doing anything more. My take on erotica has been to treat it as therapy. Erotica is a masturbation medium. As with porn, it is usually accessed by couples looking to get in the mood or by loners looking to masturbate. Well, why do people masturbate? To be frank, I do it so as not to walk around all day with a boner, drooling over every pretty thing with breasts that comes within a ten mile radius. Masturbation provides a release. When I do not have a regular sexual partner, I can bleed of a certain amount of desire. My reasoning derives directly from this observation. I don't see why controversially themed erotica should suddenly possess the opposite utility. If anything, it seems to me that, for some, erotica may provide a crucial tool to keep their questionable urges under control. What do you think?
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

unenlightened
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Posted 04/08/08 - 09:57 AM:	#2
So you need erotica to increase your libido so that you can reduce it? I suspect that usually, people rather turn to erotica to increase their sexual tension, because they cannot get a boner without it, not to avoid getting one.
_____________________ The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

jaoman
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Posted 04/08/08 - 02:39 PM:	#3
unenlightened wrote: So you need erotica to increase your libido so that you can reduce it? I suspect that usually, people rather turn to erotica to increase their sexual tension, because they cannot get a boner without it, not to avoid getting one. Of course, erotica provides arousal stimulus. That's hardly in dispute. It is the post orgasmic state of the individual that's being argued about. We are biologically programmed to desire sex, all the more so when there is no ready sex partner. The urge drives us to go out and find one. However, biology is not all knowing. Masturbation involves simulating a sex partner through a suspension of disbelief. No matter how horny, one won't get a boner thinking about dishes. On the other hand, if one is horny, one finds it harder and harder to think about dishes, becoming fixated on a sex partner. If one is particularly kinky, that thought of a sex partner may be accompanied by desired circumstances, inspired by ones deviancy. In fact, kink isn't even required. A very basic example of this involves the heterosexual thinking about the opposite gender and the homosexual thinking about the same. Furthermore, the immediate urge to mate is satisfied by the act of orgasm. Energy is built up and then released. Thus, I argue that in cases where the circumstances are impossible, providing a medium where fictional circumstances are constructed, and in so doing facilitating the release of the urge, can have great therapeutic value in containing dangerous desires.
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

unenlightened
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Posted 04/08/08 - 03:04 PM:	#4
jaoman wrote: We are biologically programmed to desire sex, Bit of a dog's dinner of metaphors there - unscrambling a little, biology doesn't programme, and programmes don't desire, but more importantly, not all of 'us' 'desire' 'sex'. You see I would argue that your 'proclivities' result from your mechanical view of humanity. But then I would also say that there is no danger in desire, but much danger in fantasy, and that is just because psycho-phisiologically, we cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality, which is why erotica 'works' you can't actually have sex with an image, but...
_____________________ The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

jaoman
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Posted 04/09/08 - 09:59 AM:	#5
unenlightened wrote: Bit of a dog's dinner of metaphors there - unscrambling a little, biology doesn't programme... Not with a keyboard. It does, however, determine certain brain states and reactions, which controls how we feel and, very often, when we feel it. unenlightened wrote: ...but more importantly, not all of 'us' 'desire' 'sex'. Does this translate to 'unenlightened' 'does not' 'want' 'to get laid'? Or did you have some other 'us' in mind? There are abnormalities to every pattern, but by and large the greatest bulk of humanity seems to be very fixated with the desire for sex. Granted, some of 'them' just want a good spanking. unenlightened wrote: You see I would argue that your 'proclivities' result from your mechanical view of humanity. Huh?! Okay, I'm intrigued. How ever would you argue that? unenlightened wrote: But then I would also say that there is no danger in desire, but much danger in fantasy, and that is just because psycho-phisiologically, we cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality, which is why erotica 'works' you can't actually have sex with an image, but... As long as psycho-physiologically does not spill over into mentally, no harm is done. Despite popular opinion among some female think tanks, men don't actually think with their penises. And in the mind the difference is very clear.
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

unenlightened
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Posted 04/09/08 - 11:59 AM:	#6
jaoman wrote: Does this translate to 'unenlightened' 'does not' 'want' 'to get laid'? Or did you have some other 'us' in mind? I'm aging, but not entirely past it. The reason for the excessive use of quotes was to point out that to a large extent these terms are 'culturally determined' or in various ways debatable. For instance, I might find some person arousing sexually but have no desire to have sex with them. There again I might have the desire as well, but still decide not to try and fulfill it. There are abnormalities to every pattern, but by and large the greatest bulk of humanity seems to be very fixated with the desire for sex. Indeed, and it is important as a part of life, but normality does not guarantee a lack of corruption. jaoman wrote: unenlightened wrote: You see I would argue that your 'proclivities' result from your mechanical view of humanity. Okay, I'm intrigued. How ever would you argue that? Ok. I hope you don't take this personally - I'm only talking about the general line of thinking... If one has a mechanistic and externalist view of human beings, and therefore of oneself, it tends to lead to a downplaying, if not a denial of agency. When you say that we are biologically programmed to desire sex, there is a tacet implication that this is something which we can do nothing about, cannot or even should not resist. but I think there is a conflation between a biological response of arousal or hunger or such, and desire which is a thought process which reflects upon that and imagines the satisfaction of the biological urge. As you say, the penis does not think, nor does it desire, I add, it simply gets ready for action. I argued in the thread Against Psychology, that one's psychological theory or ideas about human nature have a strong effect on the way one functions socially and psychologically. On this view, there can be no correct or true psychology, but there can certainly be more or less harmonious and uplifting ones. So you could put it that I prefer, morally, to think that what I dream willingly and what I come to desire, and what I eventually seek to make real, are all connected by the thread of narrative that is myself. And in the mind the difference is very clear. Here I plain disagree. In the mind, all is thought and imagination, and there is no difference between the thought of the real and the thought of the fantasy - they are both thoughts and images. The clarity of the difference is only a label that the mind has tagged them with.
_____________________ The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

jaoman
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Posted 04/09/08 - 02:00 PM:	#7
unenlightened wrote: Ok. I hope you don't take this personally - I'm only talking about the general line of thinking... No worries. I only take my own failure personally. Everyone else I treat, at worst, with an academic amusement. unenlightened wrote: The reason for the excessive use of quotes was to point out that to a large extent these terms are 'culturally determined' or in various ways debatable. For instance, I might find some person arousing sexually but have no desire to have sex with them. There again I might have the desire as well, but still decide not to try and fulfill it. Of course. We all have our limits. I hardly want to reduce humanity to a bunch of sex starved zombies (well, maybe the girls...). However, the tendency for sexual desire on the psycho-physiological level is important to my argument. Erotica cannot create cravings that weren't already there. unenlightened wrote: If one has a mechanistic and externalist view of human beings, and therefore of oneself, it tends to lead to a downplaying, if not a denial of agency. When you say that we are biologically programmed to desire sex, there is a tacet implication that this is something which we can do nothing about, cannot or even should not resist. but I think there is a conflation between a biological response of arousal or hunger or such, and desire which is a thought process which reflects upon that and imagines the satisfaction of the biological urge. As you say, the penis does not think, nor does it desire, I add, it simply gets ready for action. Hmm. Have you ever been so tired, happy, or depressed that you just could not think straight? Have you ever been stoned, for that matter, or under some other chemical affliction. Under normal conditions the paradigm you present certainly seems to me to be the dominant mode. But there are exceptions to the rule. I do not mean to imply that our weaknesses are something that should not be attended to. I'm all about self improvement and reasoned actions. However, that control can be fleeting, and under the influence of strong emotion, common morality is quickly reduced to “they said”. And who the hell are they to know better? That question is never answered to the satisfaction of the driven individual. Thus, he chooses the agency of his satisfaction over the satisfaction of others. The fact of the matter is that discipline requires very strong motivation to be maintained. unenlightened wrote: I argued in the thread Against Psychology, that one's psychological theory or ideas about human nature have a strong effect on the way one functions socially and psychologically. On this view, there can be no correct or true psychology, but there can certainly be more or less harmonious and uplifting ones. So you could put it that I prefer, morally, to think that what I dream willingly and what I come to desire, and what I eventually seek to make real, are all connected by the thread of narrative that is myself. Curiously, I think I agree with the last sentence but not with the first. I'd argue that you got that one backwards. I think one's ideas are heavily, if not wholly, influenced by the content of one's experiences. Each individual chooses to embrace that dogma which best describes him or her.
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

unenlightened
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Posted 04/10/08 - 06:05 AM:	#8
jaoman wrote: Hmm. Have you ever been so tired, happy, or depressed that you just could not think straight? Oh yes. I don't want to claim that humans are rational - if only! jaoman wrote: unenlightened wrote: I argued in the thread Against Psychology, that one's psychological theory or ideas about human nature have a strong effect on the way one functions socially and psychologically. On this view, there can be no correct or true psychology, but there can certainly be more or less harmonious and uplifting ones. So you could put it that I prefer, morally, to think that what I dream willingly and what I come to desire, and what I eventually seek to make real, are all connected by the thread of narrative that is myself. Curiously, I think I agree with the last sentence but not with the first. I'd argue that you got that one backwards. I think one's ideas are heavily, if not wholly, influenced by the content of one's experiences. Each individual chooses to embrace that dogma which best describes him or her. Ok, try this hypothesis for size. If a child is subject to corporal punishment of any formalised kind ( ie not an instant slap), they will experience fear. One of the physiological responses to fear is in the genital region - tightening of the scrotum, urge to empty the bladder, along with heightened awareness. Sexual urges have a rather similar effect, and the two can easily become associated in the mind. Any feeling in the genitals reminds one of the fear of punishment, and the fear of punishment becomes sexualised. Obviously, if this is true, S&M erotica will reinforce the association. So if you don't want to become habituated to it, stay away from such material, and as far as possible, stay away from such thoughts. jaoman earlier wrote: Let's face it, there are countless perverts who rape and take advantage without having read fiction along that vein... I'm fairly confident that most rapes follow a great deal of fantasised encounters, and these are greatly facilitated by erotica of a certain sort, although there are occasional cases due to brain damage or other pathology.
_____________________ The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

sensabile
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Posted 04/10/08 - 07:27 AM:	#9
As with any attempt to pin down a single, underlying cause in relation to humanity it is likely to be futile. Why anyone would rape someone is not likely to be due to one sole cause but a confluence of events, situations and intrigues that have occurred throughout the individual's life. Erotica may simply be another intrigue contributing to a long process, that perhaps began a long time ago, that culminates in the desire to rape another. Then again for somebody else it may just culminate in something rather more harmless, and just simply sticky.
_____________________ For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

jaoman
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Posted 04/10/08 - 09:36 AM:	#10
unenlightened wrote: Ok, try this hypothesis for size. If a child is subject to corporal punishment of any formalised kind ( ie not an instant slap), they will experience fear. One of the physiological responses to fear is in the genital region - tightening of the scrotum, urge to empty the bladder, along with heightened awareness. Sexual urges have a rather similar effect, and the two can easily become associated in the mind. Any feeling in the genitals reminds one of the fear of punishment, and the fear of punishment becomes sexualised. Obviously, if this is true, S&M erotica will reinforce the association. So if you don't want to become habituated to it, stay away from such material, and as far as possible, stay away from such thoughts. I can see the scenario, but I don't think the conclusion is warranted. If it is not sexualized, the fear of punishment does not just fizz out. This is the kind of thing that haunts a person well into life. What I see being done here is the person taking that scarring and channeling it to a place where it does not have such a direct influence on his or her daily existence. Furthermore, the negative experience has now been employed to cause pleasure. Also good. The only bad part to this scenario is the risk to the person who seeks punishment in order to gratify his or her desires. This is indeed a legitimate risk and one well recognized by the kink community. Surviving it is only a matter of finding a top who is sufficiently responsible to take sever precaution to ensure the bottom's safety. This is something very strongly emphasized by BDSM and, while the risks are not evaporated, they are not much more potent than those of seeking a partner in the mainstream pool. unenlightened wrote: I'm fairly confident that most rapes follow a great deal of fantasised encounters, and these are greatly facilitated by erotica of a certain sort... Good. Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. If this is so, is it conceivable that fantasy is not an exercise but a shackle. I mean: could the release of masturbation actually prevent a person from going out and committing the rape, as afterward the sexual need is no longer so potent?
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

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Posted 04/10/08 - 10:38 AM:	#11
I think we have conflicting intuitions about this. I can argue that I haven't noticed a decline in sexual crimes alongside the liberalisation of the last 50 years; you could repy that it's early days yet, and perhaps it is decreasing but also becoming easier to detect. Probably in another 100 years or so one of us will be proved right. If it's you, you are welcome to say 'I told you so.' I'll just add that I spent a few weeks writing a sort of S&M novel by way of exploring my own feelings (which is where I derived my hypothesis), and I decided that I did not want to encourage myself by continuing the exploration - maybe I am just not very brave. Anyway, I wouldn't presume to legislate on that basis, only advise.
_____________________ The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

RedPhoenix
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Posted 04/14/08 - 01:38 AM:	#12
I would agree with the assumption that humans, just as any other living creature, has a natural instinct to procreate. At least, this is what I've inferred from Jaoman's postings. If mankind didn't possess such instinctual urges, we wouldn't exist. I think the issue at hand however has a lot more to do with the maturity of the individual exposed to the erotic material. A mentally mature individual might be able to digest this type of information and know better than to go act on any deviant desires that it may stir up, using it only as a cathartic measure of sorts. On the other hand, if a repeat sex offender reads material pertaining to their preference of circumstance. This may get them aroused, but reading about something is rarely going to produce the same level of experience as performing such actions. If the reading experience does not fully satisfy the individual, they may choose to act on their desires. As was mentioned previously, the erotica most likely is not the root cause of the problem, but may still act as a catalyst. I do not think that erotica is inherently horrible, but when it falls into the wrong hands it may certainly have adverse effects. I have a similar attitude toward guns. I'm very much of the belief that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." It might be a stretch, but to draw a sort of parallel, I'll put it this way "erotica doesn't rape people, people rape people."

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