Determinism and morality: Philosophy Forums

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Determinism and morality

Howie
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Posted 09/11/09 - 12:12 AM:	#11
If everything is a result of cause and effect then a rock is no different than a human, the only difference is in complexity. If we imagine a rock rolling down a hill and hitting my car I would be insane to believe the rock was wrong for rolling in the direction of and hitting my car. So if it is insane to say rocks should be morally responsible for their actions then we must also agree it is insane to say a human is morally responsible for his actions since they are both in essence a result of cause and effect. Edited by Howie on 09/11/09 - 12:30 AM

Cuthbert
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Posted 09/11/09 - 02:57 AM:	#12
Suppose I agree with you that I'm 'a result of cause and effect'. Then suppose I say that I'm morally responsible. Now I suppose you would say I'm insane. But then I would say you have smelly feet. And you might point out my big red nose. The debate is not moved forward by these exchanges. Why can't something be both caused and morally responsible? 'It's insane' doesn't quite explain.

ragus
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Posted 09/11/09 - 07:00 AM:	#13
oltfl wrote Can we look at ourselves as moral beings when our actions have been predetermined? Determinism is secular authoritarianism. God gets the heave-ho but his laws remain and are repackaged as natural laws.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

Howie
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Posted 09/11/09 - 10:33 AM:	#14
If you agree that everything is a result of cause and effect then you understand the only difference between a human and a rock is complexity. A human chooses his actions as much as a rock does rolling down a hill. I think we all agree a rock doesn't have morals so how is a human different than a rock? A rock cannot be morally responsible because it didn't really make any decisions, all it did was follow the path it was meant to since the beginning of time. So to say a rock was wrong for bouncing to the right makes no sense since it was always going to do that and it could not have done anything else. This is why people don't argue with rocks or take them to court. If we say someone is morally responsible for their actions then we imply they chose their actions; they could have done something differently. Since determinism rejects this idea I don't see how you can still have morals. Edited by Howie on 09/11/09 - 11:01 AM

mutemaler
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Posted 09/11/09 - 11:21 AM:	#15
The choice seems pretty simple. Strict determinism never was a very good idea. Ditto attempting to salvage determinism by making ourselves an exception in the universe. Even worse in fact. So chuck it, chuck them. If one thing does not work, then try something else. Otherwise one will be forever running around in circles, and its a pretty good trick at that, how we manage to ignore the fact that we quite obviously influence our own actions, that this is not illusion and these include those with have moral implications to us, that I did in fact intend to pick up that pencil, that I did in fact intend to help that old bag across the street. Who was that guy that said "oh yeah, then what about this?", kicked a rock or something. I think it was about metaphysics, don't recall exactly. Something like that.

ragus
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Posted 09/11/09 - 02:58 PM:	#16
mutemaler wrote Who was that guy that said "oh yeah, then what about this?", kicked a rock or something. Dr Johnson. He admitted afterwards that the rock made him do it then downed ten pints of best ale.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

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