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Demarcation against Religion
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Demarcation against Religion
Aetixintro
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Posted 06/19/09 - 01:59 PM:
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What I want to make a conjecture of, I believe, will have an easier solution than Hilberts 8. problem.

The conjecture!
It seems to me that to make the conjecture that science will be able to describe every problem of religious kind including the question of the existence of God or such, eclipse every religious claim and therefore I make the conjecture hereby that the demarcation-against-religion-work in Philosophy of Science is futile and in vain because in reality, I suspect, every question answered by religion will be solved by science absolving every neeed of demarcation against religion. Though I find the strange, perhaps paradoxical situation that demarcation against metaphysics still stands.
Of course, when I write this I make a number of assumptions in both religious issues as well as scientific ones.

I'll refine this so I'm getting back at it. I just want to post it now.

So... What do you think? Am I crazy?

Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II
I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want
Crackers
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Posted 06/19/09 - 03:39 PM:
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science will be able to describe every problem of religious kind including the question of the existence of God or such


Religion deals with why we exist.
Science deals with what exists.

Science is insufficient to replace religion.
Science will aid in the destruction of religion but will not be it's replacement.

A new philosophy, based on the needs of man, is needed to replace religion.
Aetixintro
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Posted 06/19/09 - 06:56 PM:
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If one gets access to infinity by future-science, it should also become clear what the fundamental reason for our presence is. Thereby, the question why we exist, is relieved and no longer is needed to be asked. Likewise, if we get to decide by future-science what consciousness stems from and how life comes into being, religion is so utterly reduced to insignificance that there is no need for it. All the fundamental questions will have been answered by future-science.

So therefore, the conclusion has to be that the question of demarcation against religion may only be a question of what one ascribes to the capacity of future-science. nod As one can assert this belief, even only hypothetically, it shows that the demarcation issue against religion is indeed impossible. There you have it! There is no wonder why it has been so bloody hard to make the demarcation against religion.

Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II
I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want
Kelby
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Posted 06/20/09 - 02:45 PM:
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what do you mean by the "demarcation problem against religion?"  I haven't heard it quite used in the way you are using it.  The demarcation problem is simply noting the difference between religion and science.  In other words, what makes science science and rleigion religion. 


Are you basically asking: can science explain all the things religion claims to explain?

wuliheron
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Posted 06/20/09 - 11:25 PM:
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By definition religion deals with issues of faith, that is, beliefs for which there is no proof. These include such philosophical ideas as metaphysics which, again, by definition cannot be proven or disproven. Thus to assert that science will somehow prove or disprove all religious beliefs is to claim that science somehow can prove or disprove that which cannot be proven or disproven! This is even more ironic when you consider that philosophy also forms the foundation of the sciences.

Aetixintro
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Posted 06/21/09 - 09:45 AM:
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Kelby wrote:
what do you mean by the "demarcation problem against religion?" I haven't heard it quite used in the way you are using it. The demarcation problem is simply noting the difference between religion and science. In other words, what makes science science and rleigion religion.
Basically, I find two areas that science borders to, metaphysics and religion. Traditionally, it has been a problem to make a sound demarcation against religion, that is, it has been impossible to separate science from religion. Some people may see science as just another form of religion of which I disagree strongly. I must say the issue isn't "simply a matter of noting", it's quite hard work. In the making of the demarcation against everything that isn't science, I think it has been implied that one can get to scientific solutions faster if the non-science has been cut out of the picture.
Edit: When those two areas mix with science we get pseudo-science, just so you know I haven't left it out of the picture. People may protest to this by claiming that some metaphysics necessarily is part of science. This is correct, I think, but I don't want to get into the demarcation against metaphysics. I do, however, have strong opinions on this as well.

Kelby wrote:
Are you basically asking: can science explain all the things religion claims to explain?
I'm making the conjecture that science in the future will answer the core claims of religions and thereby reducing them to metaphysical assumptions more or less meaningful.

wuliheron wrote:
By definition religion deals with issues of faith, that is, beliefs for which there is no proof. These include such philosophical ideas as metaphysics which, again, by definition cannot be proven or disproven. Thus to assert that science will somehow prove or disprove all religious beliefs is to claim that science somehow can prove or disprove that which cannot be proven or disproven! This is even more ironic when you consider that philosophy also forms the foundation of the sciences.


I find that religions are made up of a core of claims, not fully, but most importantly. These are usually the answers to existence, consciousness, and infinity. In the past, I have been thinking that religions make equal claims in that they basically answer the same issues, but in a different way. Lately, though, I have come to believe that if I make the conjecture that science in the future will answer the core questions, religions will fall away and be redefined as "religions" that make a bunch of metaphysical claims. I think it also includes that science in the future will present an uniform belief system to all people living at that point in time. This may present a significant change, I suppose.

Edited by Aetixintro on 06/21/09 - 09:59 AM

Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II
I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want
wuliheron
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Posted 06/21/09 - 01:01 PM:
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 In highly capitalistic societies such as the US the overwhelming majority of people are religious. More middle of the road socialist countries such as Sweden are significantly less religious while communist countries tend to ban religion altogether. The issue is not so much one of scientific proof as it is of what people can trust. If people feel they cannot rely upon their community to instill ethical values in their children they will invent any number of stories in order to accomplish the task and shield their children from decenting opinions. Thus you have religious groups which ban the use of mass media, catagorically deny the validity of scientific evidence, and promote home schooling.


It doesn't matter how overwhelming the evidence might be in sciences' favor. Just a few years ago the Catholic church finally admitted it might have made a mistake putting Galileo under house arrest for claiming the earth was not the center of the universe. They still claim dinosaur bones were put in the earth by the Devil in order to confuse believers. No matter how much scientific evidence there might be to support a belief if such beliefs do not provide for all of peoples' needs they will simply be brushed aside.

Kwalish Kid
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Posted 06/22/09 - 04:51 AM:
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wuliheron wrote:
It doesn't matter how overwhelming the evidence might be in sciences' favor. Just a few years ago the Catholic church finally admitted it might have made a mistake putting Galileo under house arrest for claiming the earth was not the center of the universe. They still claim dinosaur bones were put in the earth by the Devil in order to confuse believers.

The Catholic League may, and probably does, believe this, but this is not an official Catholic position. They have more than enough reprehensible positions on their own. wink

"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P

Can you pass Religion 101?
wuliheron
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Posted 06/22/09 - 01:27 PM:
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Thanks for the correction Kwalish. As my son likes to say, "Ooopsie!"

thewatcher
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Posted 06/24/09 - 11:00 AM:
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wuliheron wrote:
In highly capitalistic societies such as the US the overwhelming majority of people are religious. More middle of the road socialist countries such as Sweden are significantly less religious while communist countries tend to ban religion altogether. The issue is not so much one of scientific proof as it is of what people can trust. If people feel they cannot rely upon their community to instill ethical values in their children they will invent any number of stories in order to accomplish the task and shield their children from decenting opinions. Thus you have religious groups which ban the use of mass media, catagorically deny the validity of scientific evidence, and promote home schooling.


So, in other words, the more thoroughgoing the control of daily life excercised by a given state, the more its citizens "trust the community to instill values in their children" therefore eliminating the need for religious mythology. It seems oppression and brutality have advocates even on a forum such as this. disapproval

And the notion that religion is merely a source of moralizing mythology is misleading. Religion plays a far more dynamic and extensive role in people's lives than merely telling them how to act. It plays a huge role in the intellectual, cultural and social contexts that shape what people are capable of being.

[quote=wuliheron]It doesn't matter how overwhelming the evidence might be in sciences' favor. Just a few years ago the Catholic church finally admitted it might have made a mistake putting Galileo under house arrest for claiming the earth was not the center of the universe. They still claim dinosaur bones were put in the earth by the Devil in order to confuse believers. No matter how much scientific evidence there might be to support a belief if such beliefs do not provide for all of peoples' needs they will simply be brushed aside.[quote]

Firstly, the Catholic Church does not hold with that bit about Dinosaur bones. Of course, I suppose you have no problem resorting to such misleading statements in order to make a point.

But since you bring it up.... why is the notion that Dinosaur bones are merely some sort of divine test of faith any less satisfying an explanation than the one proposed by science?
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