Debate 2 Discussion: Whether there exists a supreme being: Philosophy Forums

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Debate 2 Discussion: Whether there exists a supreme being

Paul
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Posted 04/18/04 - 03:20 AM:	#11
sensabile wrote: But what evidence is there that doesn't require faith? If there isn't any, then that would simply make the argument conclusive against the existence of a God. If you can't find any evidence for object X, then you should become increasingly skeptical of object X existing. Absense of proof isn't proof of absence, but absence of evidence after a complete study has been done is indeed evidence of absense. Works in a court of law as well. When you have no evidence that the defendant commited the crime, that is good reason to conclude that they are innocent -- regardless of the ever present possibility that you could be wrong. But anyhow, religious people would disagree with you about the lack of evidence. The cosmological argument for god is not a tautological one, it just attempts to assert that there is massive evidence (not proof) for a creator. So the discussion naturally becomes one of showing why the supposed evidence is not valid evidence.

PsiPhi
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Posted 04/18/04 - 03:37 AM:	#12
sensabile wrote: I have read nothing of Kant ban PsiPhi who has recently started studying Kant thereby entitled to all ensuing pretensions

Distortion
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Posted 04/18/04 - 04:15 AM:	#13
Sure taking his time on the opening post, ain't he? Perhaps one of you guys should play devil's advocate instead, you seem more eager to have at it
Make your own rules.

Paul
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Posted 04/18/04 - 05:35 AM:	#14
Give him the rest of the day at least. After arguing for the innerancy of the Q'uran, aruging for a generalized theism should be a piece of cake... so if Bluster doesn't show and no theists feel up to it, I'd be willing to try it.

sensabile
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Posted 04/18/04 - 06:40 AM:	#15
Paul wrote: If there isn't any, then that would simply make the argument conclusive against the existence of a God. If you can't find any evidence for object X, then you should[...]is massive evidence (not proof) for a creator. So the discussion naturally becomes one of showing why the supposed evidence is not valid evidence. Thereby centring the argument on burden of proof. The theist argues for this and that as evidence and hence the atheist dismissing it; seems a bit trivial to me.
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

sensabile
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Posted 04/18/04 - 06:43 AM:	#16
PsiPhi wrote: ban I intend to read Kant, but not for the moment...I have too much work; damn the education system!
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

Paul
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Posted 04/18/04 - 01:38 PM:	#17
sensabile wrote: Thereby centring the argument on burden of proof. The theist argues for this and that as evidence and hence the atheist dismissing it; seems a bit trivial to me. It has nothing to do with "burden of proof". It has to do with presenting evidence for a case. That is the way truth is determinied... if you wish to consider truth trivial, well, fine.

select
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Posted 04/18/04 - 03:00 PM:	#18
Paul wrote: Absense of proof isn't proof of absence, but absence of evidence after a complete study has been done is indeed evidence of absense. I disagree here. Absence of evidence only has meaning if there ought to be evidence in the first place. With a universe-creating God, His fingerprints should be all over the place so absence of evidence is evidence of absence. However, with some other form of diety, no matter how complete your study is, if there is no reason the evidence ought to be there in the first place, then the absence of evidence doesn't mean anything.
"To create man was a fine and original idea; but to add sheep was a tautology." Mark Twain

DarkCloud
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Posted 04/18/04 - 06:52 PM:	#19
Absence of evidence only has meaning if there ought to be evidence in the first place. With a universe-creating God, His fingerprints should be all over the place so absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I deny this. For example. If everyone was blind, then there would be no evidence that light existed. That does not mean that light does not exist. Merely that you cannot PROVE that light exists

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Posted 04/18/04 - 07:45 PM:	#20
If everyone was blind, ought there be evidence that light existed? No. So you couldn't say either way. Your example fits the pattern.
"To create man was a fine and original idea; but to add sheep was a tautology." Mark Twain

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