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Creeping Platonism in real life

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Creeping Platonism in real life

coriolis
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Posted 05/30/09 - 09:23 AM: Subject: Creeping Platonism in real life	#1
This morning my son asked me if limestone is the opposite of acid. I was taken aback momentarily but quickly recovered and answered that "acid is a category of substances, while limestone is an example of the category of alkalines. Limestone will neutralize acid, but so will other alkalines." That answer satisfied him to the extent that there was no follow-up question. After saying that I realized that with my reading of the dialogs, something must be sinking in!
I have a love affair with Socrates but I only know him in a Platonic way.

ciceronianus
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0 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 05/31/09 - 04:52 AM:	#2
My (unsolicited) advice would be, don't let it sink in too much. The fact that Plato's views led him to conceive of, and write, that dreadful totalitarian skreed The Republic has always made him suspect, to me.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

coriolis
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Posted 05/31/09 - 04:57 PM:	#3
Is it dreadful because it is totalitarian, or is it dreadful for another reason?
I have a love affair with Socrates but I only know him in a Platonic way.

swstephe
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Posted 05/31/09 - 07:44 PM:	#4
Poor kid. Already on the road to racism and xenophobia. So, we just arbitrarily throw things into categories with no understanding of the fundamental distinction. Everything is black-and-white. No mention of the ratio of H+ ions or OH- ions on a graduated scale of pH levels, which are components of water. No kid, just take our word for it. Acids are the divinely mandated ruling class. Alkalines are incapable of getting good jobs or going to good schools. They are lazy, shiftless, and will rob you blind as soon as you look the other way. In heaven, there are only acids. Hell is full of alkaline limestones. Purgatory are for diluted solutions.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.

sheps
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Posted 06/01/09 - 04:51 AM:	#5
Apparently Plato's views in the Republic were almost all his own, with very little correlation to those of Socrates (who's views he gives more in his earlier dialogues). The anti-democratic stuff was probably because Plato was still furious at the "democratic" state of Athens executing his mentor. Gotta remember that he loved the Spartans as well.
The Midnight Sun Never Sets.

ciceronianus
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Posted 06/01/09 - 06:28 AM:	#6
coriolis wrote: Is it dreadful because it is totalitarian, or is it dreadful for another reason? Primarily because it is totalitarian. But it also fills me with dread because it is an example of what can happen when philosophers believe they know all that it is important to know, and therefore what is best for everyone.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

coriolis
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Posted 06/01/09 - 09:07 AM:	#7
swstephe wrote: Poor kid. Already on the road to racism and xenophobia. So, we just arbitrarily throw things into categories with no understanding of the fundamental distinction. Everything is black-and-white. No mention of the ratio of H+ ions or OH- ions on a graduated scale of pH levels, which are components of water. No kid, just take our word for it. Acids are the divinely mandated ruling class. Alkalines are incapable of getting good jobs or going to good schools. They are lazy, shiftless, and will rob you blind as soon as you look the other way. In heaven, there are only acids. Hell is full of alkaline limestones. Purgatory are for diluted solutions. Wow! Well on the surface, I don't think his attention span would have permitted any more. On a deeper level, I agree that the shades of grey are important to understand. However, I can see the value in making the fundamental distinction as a sort of starting point. It helps to know the extremes first before you go back and fill in the middle. You don't know me very well, I am not a "black and white" kind of person. I thrive in the gray areas.
I have a love affair with Socrates but I only know him in a Platonic way.

Crackers
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Posted 06/06/09 - 11:44 AM:	#8
ciceronianus wrote: But it also fills me with dread because it is an example of what can happen when philosophers believe they know all that it is important to know, and therefore what is best for everyone. What is "best for everyone" is almost always worthless. If I have a diamond then what is best for someone is if they take all the diamond, though that would be good for that one person and bad for everyone else. So we divide the diamond into small pieces and share it out. Now nobody has what is best; everyone has an equal, yet worthless, share of something that was once valuable. You cannot share something equally without diluting it's worth. This is why the only real "common good" is self-preservation of the species. However, if all we aim for is self-preservation then our species is as worthless as the creatures we evolved from. This is why a totalitarian government is good: One dictator can have an extremely valuable goal that makes mankind valuable. Whereas one herd can have only a worthless common-good that reduces mankind to worthlessness. It matters not whether some people suffer, because their plight is for a greater good. We can let our species propagate so that we can wallow in our mediocrity and our common-good. Or we can sacrifice the weak to benefit the strong and improve mankind towards greatness. Too many people are satisfied with mediocrity. Democracy breeds mediocrity; the weak have equal power to the strong, and the strong can never achieve their full potential. Edited by Landlady on 06/07/09 - 11:19 PM. Reason: removed html

endless nameless
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Posted 06/08/09 - 10:21 AM:	#9
Sometimes parsimonious definitions can be beautiful and most appropriate, even if they do conceal part of the truth. Don't let your political considerations get in the way of your aesthetic convictions...

Mawpe
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Posted 06/11/09 - 05:05 AM:	#10
swstephe wrote: Poor kid. Already on the road to racism and xenophobia. So, we just arbitrarily throw things into categories with no understanding of the fundamental distinction. Everything is black-and-white. No mention of the ratio of H+ ions or OH- ions on a graduated scale of pH levels, which are components of water. No kid, just take our word for it. Acids are the divinely mandated ruling class. Alkalines are incapable of getting good jobs or going to good schools. They are lazy, shiftless, and will rob you blind as soon as you look the other way. In heaven, there are only acids. Hell is full of alkaline limestones. Purgatory are for diluted solutions. Oh you so desparately need an audience. Good thing you see yourself as being on TV - now we can turn you off!

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