Converting away from moral nihilism or scepticism: Philosophy Forums

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Converting away from moral nihilism or scepticism
You like polls, right?

What is your moral status?
never been morally nihilist or sceptical	180 Proof, The_Rational_Animal, cadpat_knight, unenlightened, kris, peeted	6	25%
currently morally nihilist or sceptical, <2yrs	2gontaf2, Atrytone, wu	3	13%
currently morally nihilist or sceptical, 2-4yrs	The Joker, Ibrahim, Wolfman, absurdmike	4	17%
currently morally nihilist or sceptical, 4-8yrs	mercmisfire, Postmodern Beatnik, Deftil, FreeRadical	4	17%
currently morally nihilist or sceptical, >8yrs	dclements, Elginb	2	8%
was morally nihilist or sceptical for <2yrs	kouk, at, swstephe	3	13%
was morally nihilist or sceptical for 2-4yrs	klubbit	1	4%
was morally nihilist or sceptical for 4-8yrs		0	0%
was morally nihilist or sceptical for >8yrs	ManiacJack	1	4%
24 votes

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Converting away from moral nihilism or scepticism

Postmodern Beatnik
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Posted 07/27/08 - 06:46 PM:	#21
kris wrote: My position thus is that I am not a moral nihilist even though I don't subscribe to moral tuths or a moral law. Karma does it for me. I am not a moral nihilist in metaethical sense as, you say, Buddhists are. Yes or no: are there moral truths?
It is not a mistake to have strong views. The mistake is to have nothing else. --Anthony Weston

kris
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Posted 07/28/08 - 01:53 PM:	#22
The Joker wrote: By what mechanic does karma perform out of, or is it completely based in faith? Karmic considerations guide my choices, my decisions, and my actions because of my complete faith in karma. But karma does not rely on my faith or anybody else's faith in it. Our faith does not change anything. Postmodern Beatnik wrote: Yes or no: are there moral truths? If there are moral truths, I cannot state them for you. Hence it does not make any sense for me to say there are moral truths. And there is no logical way to rule out existence of anything.
kris http://kris10846902.tripod.com/

Nihilistic Locomotive
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Posted 07/28/08 - 03:48 PM:	#23
Wiki's Moral nihilism wrote: Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. Moral nihilism must be distinguished from ethical subjectivism, and moral relativism, which do allow for moral statements to be true or false in a non-objective sense, but do not assign any static truth-values to moral statements. Insofar as only true statements can be known, moral nihilists are moral skeptics. According to Sinnott-Armstrong (2006a), the basic thesis of moral nihilism is that "nothing is morally wrong" (§3.4) In spite of my confusion about the consequence of being a moral nihilist I'm inclined to put my chips down toward the position of moral relativist. This has more to do with the moral atmosphere (convention) I've grown up and have been shaped by and nothing whatsoever to do with the acts I am capable of committing -- I believe all is permitted so long as I accept the social and personal consequences. Though moral relativism and moral nihilism don't seem like mutually exclusive positions either (a moral nihilist belongs on the shelf with other moral relativists?). These labels beg research and thought. "Nothing is morally wrong" but this not for me to decide for others (only for myself) and so it doesn't really mean anything. Edited by Nihilistic Locomotive on 07/28/08 - 03:52 PM
Be outrageous but don't be an ass.

at
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Posted 07/28/08 - 03:54 PM:	#24
kris wrote: Karmic considerations guide my choices, my decisions, and my actions because of my complete faith in karma. But karma does not rely on my faith or anybody else's faith in it. Our faith does not change anything. Can you understand the argument that, because you presuppose the existence of karma, anyone that doesn't share this assumption cannot agree with your arguments? It seems akin to arguing that: A intervening christian god exists, and whether you can justify that truth or not doesn't change anything. Do you agree with this statement? As youre asking people to do a similar thing with yours.

Postmodern Beatnik
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Posted 07/29/08 - 04:46 AM:	#25
kris wrote: If there are moral truths, I cannot state them for you. Hence it does not make any sense for me to say there are moral truths. Ah, the classic dodge of the internet mystic. New question, then: do you believe that there are any moral truths? kris wrote: And there is no logical way to rule out existence of anything. 1. A square has exactly 4 sides and 4 angles. 2. A triangle has exactly 3 sides and 3 angles. 3. Therefore, a triangle does not have 4 sides. 4. Therefore, no square triangles exist. I will not get into it here, but I believe a similar (though much more complicated) proof can be given regarding morality. Regardless, your assertion that there is no logical way to rule out the existence of anything is clearly false. Nihilistic Locomotive While it's a legitimate introductory tool, I'd be careful of using Wikipedia to define complicated positions in metaethics -- especially on a subject like moral skepticism/moral nihilism, which is traditionally underrepresented in university ethics classes. There are as many or more misconceptions about moral skepticism/moral nihilism in the general public (and thus among the general editors of Wikipedia) as there are useful insights. Edited by Postmodern Beatnik on 07/29/08 - 04:54 AM
It is not a mistake to have strong views. The mistake is to have nothing else. --Anthony Weston

The Joker
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Posted 07/29/08 - 08:48 AM:	#26
kris wrote: Karmic considerations guide my choices, my decisions, and my actions because of my complete faith in karma. But karma does not rely on my faith or anybody else's faith in it. Our faith does not change anything. By what logic have you come about Karma? Is it not a faith to say, that the universe will right all wrongs? How do you know the wrongs you think are wrongs are not the universes rights? Doesn't this presuppouse that the universe was created with the intention of containing beings with morals? Is this not intellegent design? By believeing in Karma have you not just created a world in which all who have wronged you get punished? It seems you have replaced the judeo-christian god-being with a judeo-christian god-force. The Universe doesn't punish and it doesn't reward, the universe doesn't even judge... it just IS... and so are you... for a short time anyways. It is our failure as a species if we throw away all our potential. Which for the most part we have. We should do it because our most appraised 'logic' (in which lets just say with our current track record, im not impressed) not some spooky judeo-christian force of judgment to keep us in line. Edited by The Joker on 07/29/08 - 11:41 AM
"It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear. In his death all things appear fair." - Homer

kris
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Posted 07/29/08 - 03:36 PM:	#27
at wrote: Can you understand the argument that, because you presuppose the existence of karma, anyone that doesn't share this assumption cannot agree with your arguments? Yes. In my first post in this thread, the point I am making is that my faith in karma leads me to reject moral nihilism. It does not surprise me, let alone bother me, that those who do not share my faith in karma will either subscribe to moral nihilism or look to other reasons to reject it such as searching for moral truths. It seems akin to arguing that: A intervening christian god exists, and whether you can justify that truth or not doesn't change anything. Do you agree with this statement? As youre asking people to do a similar thing with yours. In a way, I agree with your statement. However there is no comparison between karma and Christian God. I have been told by many Christians that horrendous things happen to you in Hell if you do not believe in Him. Vengeance is my name - He says and again - I am a vengeful God. Karma does not treat anyone differently because they do or do not believe in it. Ony deeds matter, not the doer's beliefs, religion, skin color, preferences, likes, etc., I hope you get the point. Edited by kris on 07/29/08 - 04:44 PM
kris http://kris10846902.tripod.com/

kris
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Posted 07/29/08 - 03:43 PM:	#28
Postmodern Beatnik wrote: Ah, the classic dodge of the internet mystic. New question, then: do you believe that there are any moral truths? I have no beliefs regarding moral truths. 1. A square has exactly 4 sides and 4 angles. 2. A triangle has exactly 3 sides and 3 angles. 3. Therefore, a triangle does not have 4 sides. 4. Therefore, no square triangles exist. I will not get into it here, but I believe a similar (though much more complicated) proof can be given regarding morality. Regardless, your assertion that there is no logical way to rule out the existence of anything is clearly false. Can you rule out the existence of moral truths with such a proof?
kris http://kris10846902.tripod.com/

kris
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Posted 07/29/08 - 04:42 PM:	#29
The Joker wrote: By what logic have you come about Karma? I have discussed this in some detail at another website. Rules of this forum do not permit me to give you the link to it. But it is easy to find from where you are. Is it not a faith to say, that the universe will right all wrongs? I am not sure if there is a way around faith. I have faith in karma. Some have faith in moral truths. Yet some others place their faith in moral nihilism. And so on. How do you know the wrongs you think are wrongs are not the universes rights? I think you should ask this question to those who believe in moral truths. Doesn't this presuppose that the universe was created with the intention of containing beings with morals? My faith in karma derives from my faith in a more general concept from ancient India called the Eternal Law. This law is merely a statement of faith in ordered universe. I don't think anyone can prove Eternal Law. It is an axiom. It is an axiom on a grand scale. I don't know of any other axiom that is so overarching as this one. Laws of nature follow from this axiom. However unlike the axioms known to science, this axiom applies to all facets of the universe, those that science deals with and those that it does not show interest in. Order does not imply intention. Law of gravity maintains large rocks in univese in order, but I don't impute any intention to gravity. Is this not intellegent design? Order in the universe is an abservable fact. Whether the order resulted from design is a matter of extrapolation. By believeing in Karma have you not just created a world in which all who have wronged you get punished? I am trying to make sense of the world as it exists, not creating anything. In this world, even wishing that those who have wronged me be punished is not desirable. It seems you have replaced the judeo-christian god-being with a judeo-christian god-force. Read my post # 27. The Universe doesn't punish and it doesn't reward, the universe doesn't even judge... it just IS... Indeed it just is. I therefore try to understand it. No judgment is necessary for consequences to follow from actions. But actions do result in consequences. It is my contention that consequeces are not randomly generated. ... and so are you... for a short time anyways. It is our failure as a species if we throw away all our potential. Which for the most part we have. We should do it because our most appraised 'logic' (in which lets just say with our current track record, im not impressed) not some spooky judeo-christian force of judgment to keep us in line. Understanding the nature of the order in the universe can only enhance our potential. We learn to reach out in space not by denying the existence of gravity but by understanding it and working to overcome it. Your citing of Judeo-Christain God is totally out of place when the discussion is about karma. Karma is a descriptive principle or a descriptive law. It is not a prescriptive law. With karma, one is expected to think and act, not obey commandments accompanied by threats of judgements and horrific punsihment for disobedience.
kris http://kris10846902.tripod.com/

dclements
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Posted 07/29/08 - 04:47 PM:	#30
Nihilism, although not always pleasant in accepting, has the advantage of being the most honest position that a person to take...to fully understand and accept the fact that there is possibility that all of our efforts are for nothing is enlightening while at the same time can be detrimental to one's sanity. As far as I know there is no easy way to deny nihilism. The only option is to make believe that it isn't a problem and continue to tell yourself that there is a purpose . I reading somewhere that it is believed that people that are enlightened are the one's that opened up there minds to such things as nihilism and can accept it. The one's that can not go mad.
No, you don't get it, thats why I'm telling you. You think you get it, which isn't the same as actually getting it. Get it?-Kakashi Hatake Virtue itself turns vice, being misapplied, And vice sometimes by action dignified-Friar Lawrence The state of mind that questions is much more important than the question itself.Any question may be asked by a slavish mind, and the answer it receives will still be be within the limitations of its own slavery...Freedom of desire for an answer is essential for the understanding of a problem-Krishnamurti

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