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Consensual Sexual Intercourse

randomwit
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Posted 09/14/03 - 12:17 PM:	#1
Should 18 be the law for consensual sexual intercourse? Should there even be a law given we are independent and all develop at a different rate? Since we are legally considered "adults" at 18, and able to vote, is the age 18 rational?

great_brain
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Posted 09/14/03 - 06:08 PM:	#2
randomwit wrote: Should 18 be the law for consensual sexual intercourse? Should there even be a law given we are independent and all develop at a different rate? Since we are legally considered "adults" at 18, and able to vote, is the age 18 rational? In trouble with the law again, eh? All of these laws (sex, drinking, driving, voting, buying porn) are all arbitrary, or at best based on someones conception of when someone has the ability to make a conscious choice about their own welfare. I find it exceedingly humorous that in the U.S. we feel that people are perfectly capable of selecting the leader of our country at 18, but need 3 more years before they can say whether or not they should have a beer. Likewise we have no problem putting a 16 year old in control of the deadliest piece of machinery ever invented, but they need to wait 2 more years before they are really able to decide if they should watch porn or screw. As Monty Python might say, "let's not go to America, it's a silly place"

TecnoTut
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Posted 09/14/03 - 09:11 PM:	#3
great brain wrote: All of these laws (sex, drinking, driving, voting, buying porn) are all arbitrary You're right. There is absolutely no correlation between age and sophistication. No relationship between maturity and adolescence. No connection between responsibility and adulthood. Our laws should permit toddlers and three year olds to booze and drive, vote on sensitive moral issues, fornicate, and purchase sexually prurient materials.
He that dies pays all debts - Shakespeare's Stephano from The Tempest Truth is its own measure - Spinoza, Ethics IIp43s Those who deny [Aristotle's] first principle should be flogged or burned until they admit that it is not the same thing to be burned and not burned, or whipped and not whipped. - Ibn Sina (Avicenna)

Distortion
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Posted 09/14/03 - 09:15 PM:	#4
TecnoTut wrote: You're right. There is absolutely no correlation between age and sophistication. No relationship between maturity and adolescence. No connection between responsibility and adulthood. Our laws should permit toddlers to booze, vote on sensitive moral issues, fornicate, and purchase sexually prurient materials. Techno, it's quite obvious that GB wasn't saying that there isn't any correlation - he was just pointing out the fact that the laws are to a great degree subjective. There are some 12 year olds with more maturity than some 30 year olds, and vice versa. Obviously, as a generalization, maturity increases with age. GB was simply pointing out the fact that this is a generalization.. not a law. To answer the original question: I'm not sure if there should be a law - it is too arbitrary, and it has too little effect on what actually happens in the first place. 99% of the time, the only difference it makes is months later in the courts who is being charged with statutory rape. Personally, I think that it's crap. But I don't want to get into it.
Make your own rules.

TecnoTut
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Posted 09/14/03 - 09:43 PM:	#5
Distortion wrote: Techno, it's quite obvious that GB wasn't saying that there isn't any correlation - he was just pointing out the fact that the laws are to a great degree subjective. There are some 12 year olds with more maturity than some 30 year olds, and vice versa. Obviously, as a generalization, maturity increases with age. GB was simply pointing out the fact that this is a generalization.. not a law Subjectivity? Yes? Great degree? No. It is an exception that a 12 year old is more mature than a middle-aged adult. However, the law will not nullify nor substitute reasonable assumptions or generalizations for semioccasional exceptions.
He that dies pays all debts - Shakespeare's Stephano from The Tempest Truth is its own measure - Spinoza, Ethics IIp43s Those who deny [Aristotle's] first principle should be flogged or burned until they admit that it is not the same thing to be burned and not burned, or whipped and not whipped. - Ibn Sina (Avicenna)

methods3110
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Posted 09/14/03 - 10:01 PM:	#6
The ages are arbitrary of course but it would be impossible to legislate in any other way. If you believe that the age of sexual consent should be regulated, or drinking, smoking, voting, and a host of other issues, then you have to set a level, and whether this is an appropriate level for one individual rather than another becomes irrelevant.The exact age then becomes the critical issue, with few or no considerations of equity, and will be rigorously enforced with, in the case of an extremely prurient United States, draconian penalties. This is called 'justice' and continues to be considered so as long as because people BELIEVE it is. This reminds me of a recent case in the United States where a professor brought a boy into America for sexual gratification and received a ludicrous 60 year sentence. If the boy had been one year older the professor could not have been prosecuted. Is that justice?

Paul
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Posted 09/15/03 - 12:50 AM:	#7
I think it's not a matter at all of when someone has the judgment to make good decisions... it's a matter of when they're entitled to make bad decisions. Do you really think there's an age at which someone sees the wisdom behind smoking and gambling, and wisely chooses them? No, there's just an age at which we say "OK, wreck your life." Sex is classified similarly because of the possibility of making bad decisions about it and being exploited by someone. In this case the presumption is that the exploitation would be by an older person -- the professor in methods3110's example case -- of a younger person. Theoretically it precludes teenagers from having sex with teenagers, but that's not the real point and as such is almost never enforced... and even when it is, it's certainly not envorced with the same degree of punishment (or even close) as when it's an older person perceived to be sexually exploiting a younger person. A 40 year old could exploit a 20 year old more than an 18 year old could a 17 year old, sure... but let's see you try to write up a law that specifies something enforcable without declaring exact age limits.

methods3110
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Posted 09/15/03 - 01:38 AM:	#8
In the case of the professor the boy had come from a very poor country and deprived background, and in exchange for sex had changed his circumstances very much for the better, knowing perfectly well what he was doing. The word 'exploitation' can only be used when the arrangement is entirely one-sided, and just because sex is involved between a boy and a much older man does not make it exploitation per se. In ancient times in Greece and other parts of the world these relationships were considered perfectly normal for the upper classes and were very much part of a boys advancement into manhood where he often benefitted greatly from the knowledge, advice and protection of his older partner. Greek homsexuality was not between adult men, which they considered absurd, but between men and boys and was socially perfectly acceptable. Sexual mores change according to the needs of the time, and now, of course, it is regarded as beyond the Pale.

Paul
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Posted 09/15/03 - 01:47 AM:	#9
Your case of the professor and the boy then is clearly prostitution. Is prostitution exploitation? Well, that's an entirely different subject, but the legal system considers it to be. Or at least, the legal system considers it beneficial to society as a whole to eliminate it for whatever reason.

methods3110
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Posted 09/15/03 - 02:03 AM:	#10
That means that half the marriages in America are prostitution. Should we eliminate those too? Would these substantial ladies with their metaphorical minks and diamonds, and juicy inheritance acquired at the end of the ordeal, regard themselves as exploited?

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