Chasing clouds.: Philosophy Forums

Chasing clouds.
Longing to achieve abstract ideas.

Chasing clouds.

jsawvel
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Posted 10/27/09 - 08:41 PM: Subject: Chasing clouds.	#1
I was thinking of the degree of abstract achievements now-a-days. People live in the abstract. There are ideas of nation, discovery, success, power etc. We have the idea of status. We have the idea of power, or giftedness, or perfection. We have stories about what achieving these things means. We want to achieve peace, we want to achieve "success." All these things are abstract. We have images and stories associated with them and when we have achieved them, we have achieved something abstract, not something real. There is no nation, there is no success, there is no ideal, there is no perfection. It's just an idea. It gives you a feeling. It tells a story. But, when you try to achieve the abstract, you are chasing clouds, because no-one really knows what the abstraction means. It does not manifest itself. It is not something you can see. It lives in another world in your mind. So, achieving the abstract yields little fruit, because it is not IN reality.

James S Saint
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Posted 10/27/09 - 09:24 PM:	#2
"But, when you try to achieve the abstract, you are chasing clouds, because no-one really knows what the abstraction means." That is a declaration of Your state. It does not apply to everyone. You probably presume that it does, but once again, that is merely a declaration of yourown state of presumption. How do you know when "no one knows"?

jsawvel
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Posted 10/28/09 - 08:52 AM:	#3
This is true, just because I do not see unicorns, doesn't mean other people don't. I can only speak from my own experience. I understand the "feeling" of an abstract idea, but have never seen one. Of course, you might be able to argue that all ideas are abstract, but some seem to be more grounded, like - "I think I should tend to the fields, it looks like its going to rain today." Rather than, "I am rich." I think you can say "I am rich" in a very literal way, but there is also an abstract connotation. Some abstract ideas seem to be associated with mysticism and romanticism.

James S Saint
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Posted 10/28/09 - 09:47 AM:	#4
"no one really knows what the [word] abstraction means" Just to clarify; Online Merriam-Webster wrote: Main Entry: ¹ab·stract Pronunciation: \ab-?strakt, ?ab-?\ Function: adjective Etymology: Medieval Latin abstractus, from Latin, past participle of abstrahere to drag away, from abs-, ab- + trahere to pull, draw Date: 14th century 1 a : disassociated from any specific instance <an abstract entity> b : difficult to understand : abstruse <abstract problems> c : insufficiently factual : formal <possessed only an abstract right> 2 : expressing a quality apart from an object <the word poem is concrete, poetry is abstract> 3 a : dealing with a subject in its abstract aspects : theoretical <abstract science> b : impersonal, detached <the abstract compassion of a surgeon — Time> 4 : having only intrinsic form with little or no attempt at pictorial representation or narrative content <abstract painting> So yeah, trying to "see" a nation would be a little silly.

jsidelko
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Posted 10/29/09 - 12:19 PM:	#5
Most of us live in a world of hyper-real abstractions where so much of concrete existence has been elevated to the abstract. Excessive abstractions result from over generalizations of ordinary existence in order to make it more comprehensible to the average mind. These broad linguistic brush strokes simplify language and reduce the need for verbal accuracy. The smaller a person's vocabulary the more likely he is to use abstractions, metaphors, analogies and sweeping generalizations to describe and understand his daily experiences. Without the fuzzy language of everyday discourse, communication, vague as it is, would breakdown. We simply the complex by abstracting the concrete.
thanatos

Banno
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Posted 10/29/09 - 12:37 PM:	#6
jsawvel wrote: There is no nation, there is no success, there is no ideal, there is no perfection. It's just an idea. It gives you a feeling. It tells a story. Nope. Observing that such things are "ideas" - I prefer "constructed" - does not make them cease to be.
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

jsawvel
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Posted 10/29/09 - 04:30 PM:	#7
That's a good point about what exists or doesn't exist. There is the idea of a house existing, but do you see it as a house or a collection of boards or do you see a board as a piece of wood or a collection of particles and some people would say "both." Obviously people use words to describe things, but whether those things are worth pursuing is another matter. I know that's not really what this thread is about. It is about whether abstract ideas exist. You could describe "success" as a set of feelings in conjunction with a set of conditions. For instance, if I feel successful, I can't be classified as successful if I am conforming to a group definition of success. I must also have something to show for my success. To me, abstractions are solely functional, they are ways to categorize and organize things in your mind. But, I find some abstractions to be not worth pursuing or achieving because they are almost entirely abstract with no grounding in reality. If you want to pursue them, go for it, but they are simply apparitions based on group definition. They are not things you can personally observe and make conclusions on. They are not self evident. Again, this is probably just my viewpoint or opinion, take it for what its worth. Opinions are like %^&*((), and everybody's got one.

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