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Capitalism its evolution & the Communist Manifesto

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Capitalism its evolution & the Communist Manifesto

davidasearles
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Posted 10/31/09 - 09:28 AM:	#91
dimitri wrote: Market is full of all kind of institutions (traditions) for realization of all kind of exchanges (of services and goods) See, that's the problem. Take for example the distribution of goods within the large corporation I used to work for. Goods would be transferred from one department to another without any notion of "exchange" whatsoever, especially an exchange that contained any notion of trying to advance one's position by withholding the transfer of goods in hopes of realizing more of that which the goods are being exchanged for. I would say that the transfer of goods and services within a family or within a corporation are mostly devoid of any such notions and that they would not be considered market transactions, but that's me. According to you, a labor share system of collective worker control of means of production and distribution would be a "market" response to the problem of workers not having sufficient individual access (in array of goods and services and the amount of those goods and services). OK.

dimitri
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Posted 10/31/09 - 11:36 AM:	#92
Family is a form of exchanging services between its members. Tradition regulates functions of each member. This exchange is not conducted through the market mechanism, but you make a family or find your partner through this mechanism. During the period of courting you work out the terms of your future relations... Etc. But you ignored my question why you don't continue to live with other members of your family after they grow up and get married? I don't say that you have no right to organize an enterprice in which workers would own the means of production. (I don't understand the world control because it's a communistic nonsese). It will be something like stock-company. But if you try to establish something like workers participation in management it will be uneffective and will not survive in competition. Because collective management is absurdity. YOu can not escape the market. And if you preserve market in your communistic paradize you will return to capitalism. If you try to restrict the market so as to achieve a kind of equality or communistic justice then you will get - dictature and poverty. Edited by dimitri on 10/31/09 - 11:43 AM

davidasearles
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Posted 10/31/09 - 12:45 PM:	#93
dimitri wrote: Family is a form of exchanging services between its members. A parent feeds a child predicated on EXCHANGE for the smiles a parent gets back? No smile, no supper?

dimitri
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Posted 10/31/09 - 07:04 PM:	#94
Yes, parent gets smiles, and when children grow older they help their parents in work and fight and when they become old children take care of them. So it was during the centuries when the family insitution took the shape thay have now. Now in changed cirsumstances these function of families change. So the family institution will also change. And you have to take into consideration the biological instinct too. The need in sexual relations, for instance. The similar need is the need in food, which a man satisfies through market. When market was primitive the role of such institutions as family, kinship, friendship etc. in survival was much more than now. When people had some work to do, for instance when they wanted to build a house they asked their friends, relatives for the help. NOw you do it mainly through market. Etc.

davidasearles
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Posted 11/01/09 - 06:52 AM:	#95
davidasearles wrote: A parent feeds a child predicated on EXCHANGE for the smiles a parent gets back? No smile, no supper? dimitri wrote: Yes, parent gets smiles, and when children grow older they help their parents in work and fight and when they become old children take care of them. It's hardly a quid pro quo or even done in contemplation of an exchange. Hardly marketable in the common sense of the word. dimitri wrote: So it was during the centuries when the family institution took the shape they have now. Now in changed circumstances these function of families change. So the family institution will also change....When market was primitive the role of such institutions as family, kinship, friendship etc. in survival was much more than now. When people had some work to do, for instance when they wanted to build a house they asked their friends, relatives for the help. NOw you do it mainly through market. Etc. Now don't you sound just like a Marxist with the materialist conception of history! There's hope for us yet:-) Absolutely, we depend more on the market now, but that does not mean that the market is our only possible tool of survival. Just as a corporation doesn't usually market its goods from one department to another, and some even allow their employees to consume produce at cost - workers are not tied to a market system by which to produce and distribute goods and services among themselves for which workers are willing to input an equivalent amount of labor for.

yebiga
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Posted 11/01/09 - 07:00 AM:	#96
dimitri could you define what the devil you mean by a market? It seems that you exclude nothing from it, sibling rivalry, the mafia or picking up women all are in your market. Thus your definition of market seems like any intercourse between humans. This is an unreasonable argument, or no argument at all: if everything is the market than everything is the market; 1=1. Yet, if we go back in time to create a little distance and pray a little dispassion, then one could say the feudal system was a market, the hunter gatherer communities or even the nomads also conducted a market. Thus even stalinist communist oppressed their citizens with a type of market. Thus there are markets and there are markets or 1 does not equal 1! The devil as always is in the detail. Is it USA free market you support, a market which has propped itself up for the last 50 years by dominating weapon production and instigating wars to ensure a steady demand for its production. Is this the market you refer to? Or is it the market which allows Monsanto to provide humanitarian shipments of genetically modified seeds to African farmers, seeds who's crops are seedless, ensuring that the farmers relationship with monsanto is the same dependency that exists between a dealer and a drug user. Or are you referring to the global drug market? The oil market? Or are you referring to the criminal reluctance and manipulation by energy companies around the globe who forestall the progress of alternative, cheap, natural energy? Perhaps finally, you must admit that all you are referring to is power, the negotiation of powerful forces to obtain more and protect what they obtain. In essence you are defending man's most primitive animal instincts. This support whilst at least logical is in fact a denial of man's transcendence from his ape beginning.

dimitri
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Posted 11/01/09 - 12:12 PM:	#97
Market is a free exchange of goods and services among people, or the exchange of things and services is realized through the market. This is a universal mechanism which embraces all human activity. Though people often try to introduce the elements of coercion into it. Then the market ceases to be free. For instanse your choise of spouse is also realized through market mechanism. You look for a girl which satisfies your requirements among a number of candidates and offer your services in your turn. The girl does the same thing, she is looking for a partner. Then you get married that means getting into relations which allow you to exchange services (inside the institution we call family). But may be your parents decide for you who you must marry. Than your choise is not free. Etc. Our economical activity is realized through the same mechanism - the market. We exchange goods and services in the same way. ANd there too we must exclude any form of coercion. Etc. You must see the whole picture not just one (the negative in your opinion) side of the problem, then you will be able to understand the shallowness of communistic approach.

davidasearles
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Posted 11/01/09 - 06:34 PM:	#98
dimitri wrote: Market is a free exchange of goods and services among people, or the exchange of things and services is realized through the market. This is a universal mechanism which embraces all human activity. Not all human activity is freely exchanging goods and services. Obviously. Embraces all human activity. A meaningless statement.

dimitri
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Posted 11/01/09 - 08:08 PM:	#99
Perhaps I have to explaine it once more. All human activity is rationalization (rational use, redistribution...)of his resources (time, force, knowledge, goods...) for achievment of some goals (all kind of goals not just material ones!). For realization of his goals he needs the help of other people. The main and universal principle of getting other people's help is the exchange! Of goods and services. Even in family even among friends. Not necessarily immediate like when buying something in a shop, but the exchange may be extended for years like in family, where children have an obligation to help their old parents. Such exchanges are regulated through different cultural institutions, traditions (like family...), but the main mechanism of realizing exchnages (of goods and services) is market! This mechanism represents in the first place a system of measurment of the things exchanged. You achieve through it a relative equivalency, which is impossible to do in any other way. Communists can not see such simple but fundamental facts regarding human existence etc.

willem
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Posted 11/02/09 - 04:27 AM:	#100
All human activity is rationalization (rational use, redistribution...)of his resources (time, force, knowledge, goods...) for achievment of some goals (all kind of goals not just material ones!). Boy, will you be in for a big surprise when you finally meet humans !
www.msf.org www.icrc.org www.greenpeace.org

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