Philosophy Forums
Forums Links Articles Gallery Chat
Style:



Register | Forgot Password
MembersCalendarNew Posts ChatHelp
Philosophy Forums » Philosophy of Science » Science » Before the beginning, of the beginning » Before the beginning, of the beginning

Before the beginning, of the beginning

printPrint


Before the beginning, of the beginning
Verybadman?
Student
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 05, 2007
Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 23
Posted 08/27/08 - 05:38 AM:
Subject: Before the beginning, of the beginning 		quote post
#1
The principle of the conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

So what was there before the universe? How did these gases Helium, Hydrogen, and recently thought Lithium collide to form an ever increasing in mass, hypertrophic universe. Regarding the law of conservation, does it mean unimaginable quantities of energy was stored in some other form of matter before the 'beginning'? Another dimension even?(whatever that suggests).

That said, does it not seem more logical to believe in the work of a divine creator?

Discuss.
Kwalish Kid
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 2992
Posted 08/27/08 - 06:10 AM:
quote post
#2
The principles of conservation of energy does not relate to the process of building heavier elemetns out of smaller ones, except for the limits it places on the particulars of the various means of combination and the cross-sections of the reactions. There is no increase in overall mass-energy in these reactions.

But even if we accept that there was a beginning to the universe (and the standard Big Bang model does not require that we make such a commitment), we do not necessarily have the license to extend the laws of all thing within the universe to the universe as a whole.
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P

"A fishnet is made up of a lot more holes than strings, but you can't therefore argue that the net doesn't exist. Just ask the fish." - Jeffrey Kluger

"…Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." -Ben Stein [This is included for the irony.]
swstephe
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Location: borneo island
Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 2150
Posted 08/27/08 - 05:01 PM:
quote post
#3
The most common answer is that the big bang was a singularity of infinite energy and zero space, and since time and space are intimately connected, it results in an asymptotic "singularity" -- time began with the big bang, so there was no "time" for there to be a "before". You can not logically or scientifically proceed to make any claim about the point "before T=0", because it impossible to reach that point. We can imagine it, just like we can imagine traveling faster than the speed-of-light, but that just means our conception is out of touch with reality.

There is some noise about LQG, (loop quantum gravity), which seems to indicate that there wasn't really a singularity, but a quantum flip as a previous universe collapsed, but the results aren't quite out yet, (http://www.physorg.com/news126955971.html).

In the first case, to postulate anything before the big bang is pure speculation, well outside of logic and closer to delusional thinking, (especially considering the call for anthropomorphizing this pre-initial state). The second would make "divine" simply "alien", obeying classical mechanics in some way.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.
Verybadman?
Student
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 05, 2007
Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 23
Posted 08/29/08 - 01:41 AM:
quote post
#4
I understand the theory you are postulating swstephe, but for the big band to initiate i.e before the big band - matter must have had to be in existence (so that these fundamental particles had an opportunity to collide). If atoms were in existence, then of course space was also in existence, and drawing a conclusion from what you have said, so was time.

"time and space are intimately connected"

...maybe I haven't quite grasped what you are trying to convey. Please elaborate.
swstephe
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Location: borneo island
Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 2150
Posted 08/29/08 - 02:05 AM:
quote post
#5
Verybadman? wrote:
I understand the theory you are postulating swstephe, but for the big band to initiate i.e before the big band - matter must have had to be in existence (so that these fundamental particles had an opportunity to collide). If atoms were in existence, then of course space was also in existence, and drawing a conclusion from what you have said, so was time.


Actually, current "big bang" theory says that matter only formed for the first time a little time later. Working backwards leads to a singularity, where space is ... a "point", (to put it simply). You might ask, "where did space expand into" and "isn't space infinite", and that is where it gets even weirder, as the questions show the weakness of our Newtonian perception of the Universe.

Verybadman? wrote:
"time and space are intimately connected"

...maybe I haven't quite grasped what you are trying to convey. Please elaborate.


Special relativity showed that time wasn't an independent factor, but relied on the spatial relationships of the observer to a subject. I speed up, time slows down. So it is reasonable to treat "time" as a 4th dimension in those models. When space was a "point", then there could be no "time". But be careful that "time" isn't a Cartesian dimension, but a mental concept.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.
Kwalish Kid
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 2992
Posted 08/29/08 - 03:34 AM:
quote post
#6
Actually, current cosmological theory doesn't commit to any singularity. The theory does identify a point in the past where there was a density and temperature so high that we do not have an adequate physical theory to describe parts of the universe at that time. So the actual suppported theory of cosmology does not include any origin event.

Standard cosmological theory is often called the "Big Bang" theory, but it is not a theory about some origin event. The name was given to the theory by an opponent and, unfortunately, it has caused a great deal of confusion.

There are many different conjectures about the origin of the universe that use standard cosmological theory as their foundation. In some of these, there is a definite origin for all events.
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P

"A fishnet is made up of a lot more holes than strings, but you can't therefore argue that the net doesn't exist. Just ask the fish." - Jeffrey Kluger

"…Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people." -Ben Stein [This is included for the irony.]
throng
Graduate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Total Topics: 8
Total Posts: 195
Posted 11/02/08 - 06:14 AM:
quote post
#7
Absolutely, Big bang refers to a time when the universe was extremely dense and hot. Subsequently it continues to cool and expand.

Acceleration of the expansion has been observed which flies in the face of a big bang. (It should be slowing down).

Nowdays physicists look toward interacting dimensions. The big bang theory is slowly being replaced by more eloquent expressions.

There's no physics to explain what happened. Some eastern philosophy has some very picturesque teachings that are sensible, but wide open to interpretation.
Download thread as


You don't have permission to post.

Please login or register.

© 2008

24 total queries
This page was created in 1.22 seconds
Memory used: 6811932 bytes
Server Status: time since last reboot is 246 days, 4:01, load average: 1.77, 1.77, 1.88