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Babies

G.E.B. <3
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Posted 07/02/09 - 04:04 PM: Subject: Babies	#1
I read the 'read this' thread so...i think this is kosher. My question is: how does a child think before he learns a language? The question's that simple. I know I think in english, because it's the first and only language I learned, but if grew up and never learned a language would I only know cause and effect? Do babies only know cause and effect?

unenlightened
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Posted 07/02/09 - 05:34 PM:	#2
It is rather difficult to convey in language, thinking without language. Perhaps, if you experiment yourself by thinking of a piece of music,or an evocative smell, you will see that there can be experiences and associations without words. The smell of fresh cut grass, warm sunshine, and the noises of a game of cricket - I have to say it in words, but the feeling picture does not depend on words. Babies often learn to walk and to use a spoon before they have much language, so clearly they do think without words, but you should not be surprised that it is not possible to say quite what that is, because saying is words. I remember my birth; I used to have nightmares about it - wordless nightmares, but now I have put the memories into words "I remember being born" and since I recognised in words what the remembered experience was, I stopped having the nightmares. But I think 'cause and effect' is a sophisticated linguistic 'explanation' for associations that babies make without any reflection.
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

G.E.B. <3
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Posted 07/02/09 - 08:53 PM:	#3
unenlightened wrote: Babies often learn to walk and to use a spoon before they have much language, so clearly they do think without words, But aren't they thinking, 'if I stand up like those bigger people I will be able to move easier', or 'using this object will make it easier to eat'? Do they learn language through cause and effect? As in; 'if I learn to talk then I can convey what I want more clearly'. I know I can think without language. I can think about sounds and smells and such but a baby doesn't have the experience that I do. I guess a baby can feel and think subconsciously about things like the scent of his mother or the feeling of being held by her. Or is the scent or feel of it's mother a conscious thought? If not then I revise my question: Can a baby think consciously without language?

Rilx
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Posted 07/03/09 - 03:19 AM:

G.E.B. <3 wrote:

Can a baby think consciously without language?

Depends on how you define "conscious"; are animals conscious? nod

My cat is laying here on the table beside the keyboard. No doubt she is conscious of the situation. But she can't think symbolically - that's what symbolic language makes possible. She understands signals and communicates by signals - not only sounds but gestures etc. And she thinks functionally: what to do, where to go, how to behave in this or that situation. IMO that's the level babies think before they learn language.

"In the life, there are no solutions. There are forces in motion. Those need to be created, and solutions follow." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery, Night Flight

Cohan8
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Posted 07/05/09 - 01:06 AM:	#5
The human perception claims ownership to its relative consciousness, but it is electricity that knows where it's going before it gets there... Maybe it is the purpose through which a baby is born where a baby finds its necessarily conscious purpose?
There is no right and there is no wrong, find a new way to dream about what surrounds you and you find reverence through ignorance.

ecspose
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Posted 07/05/09 - 11:33 PM:	#6
G.E.B. <3 wrote: My question is: how does a child think before he learns a language? The question's that simple. I know I think in english, because it's the first and only language I learned, but if grew up and never learned a language would I only know cause and effect? If a person lived feral never knowing a language, are you saying that somehow they would never become conscious, just because they never associated mouth-sounds with meanings? I think the differences in a baby's thoughts based on it not knowing a language, are insignificant to the differences based on the fact that it's a baby. I'm sure if you try hard enough you will be able to think without words. When you watch a movie and there is a dark alley, with scary music, are you mentally telling yourself in English, "Dark alley, scary music, shadows moving around...". Of course not. It's not like we need language to understand something. G.E.B. <3 wrote: Do babies only know cause and effect? I would say all of us only know cause and effect, but we also are trained to attach language to it.
Self replication leads to self replication

former
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Posted 08/07/09 - 08:22 AM:	#7
suppose you wake up tommorw with a mental disorder that muted the inner dialouge of your mind. you can't find words. and therefore speak. and you hear uterrance from other people simply as sounds. suppose as musical sounds. dabudada budadabu badudibu bada badu bod bad still... you think. might even think well. you can slap someone in the cheek and go dance. this situation is not so bad

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