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Ayahuasca and Porous Being
Disenchantment, Phenomenology and Psychedelics

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Ayahuasca and Porous Being

swstephe
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 07/18/09 - 07:15 PM:	#11
I'm still waiting for your view on why interfering with the brain's natural function is beneficial to individuals or society. The ultimate question is whether enthenogens actually give the user benefits, or simply make the user feel like they are receiving benefits. Has anybody taken a drug and significantly raised their IQ scores, improved their scores in sports, has it cured mental illness or relieved alzheimers? Perhaps there are social benefits. Looking at the current economy and trying to reverse psychoanalyze the media, it seems that "responsible reporting" involves convincing the public that everything is about to get better. Perhaps a wide distribution of psychoactive drugs which give a sense of calm would help avert an economic disaster due to a public panic. Looking at some of those videos, I note the highly lauded, "feeling of oneness with humanity", would imply a loss of ego, selfishness or instinct for self-preservation. Perhaps a denatured drug like this would be useful in defeating individualism and allow society to function more smoothly as a conforming collective.
I do seem to remember a process where you people ask me questions and I give you answers, and then I ask you questions and you give me answers, and that's the way we find out things. I think I read that in a manual somewhere. -- Haywood Floyd 2010

Ineffable Ant
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Posted 07/18/09 - 08:21 PM:	#12
In regards to your question '[do] entheogens actually give the user benefits, or simply make the user feel like they are receiving benefits', i feel that the relationship between mind and matter is very intricate and profound far beyond what the majority of western science acknowledges. I don't think it matters so much if entheogens give the user benefits or if they give the user the power to 'project' benefits on themselves, the benefit is there and that is the important part. I think that one of the really impressive powers of entheogens is how they effect the relationship between mind and matter. Both these interconnected realms support and influence each other through belief and intent, and the constraining, or not so constraining, forces of the natural world. The profound relationship between mind and matter, without entheogens, is obvious when observing examples like how stress can effect physical health. Stress is a non-physical phenomena which can have profound effects on the body. For another example, consider how people with strong 'will power' can live with cancer much longer (or even cure it) than those who 'give up', mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually. As for intelligence, there are a lot of examples. Kary Mullis won the Nobel prize in 1993 for developments in modeling DNA, or something like that. He states: "In a Q&A interview published in the September, 1994, issue of California Monthly, Mullis said, "Back in the 1960s and early '70s I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took."[18] During a symposium held for centenarian Albert Hofmann, "Hofmann revealed that he was told by Nobel-prize-winning chemist Kary Mullis that LSD had helped him develop thepolymerase chain reaction that helps amplify specific DNA sequences."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis When Nixon freaked out and scheduled these substances in 1973, including the criminalisation of proffesionals studying them, the scientific community, especially psychology, copped a lot of flack which publically effected its credibility. As a result most contemporary psychologists are riding a wave of dislike towards these substances. Mind you, the times are changing and there are some really strong contemporary studies on LSD and pscilocybin coming out of Switzerland. http://www.maps.org/research/cluster/psilo-lsd/ I think this idea is creative: 'Looking at some of those videos, I note the highly lauded, "feeling of oneness with humanity", would imply a loss of ego, selfishness or instinct for self-preservation. Perhaps a denatured drug like this would be useful in defeating individualism and allow society to function more smoothly as a conforming collective'. However, I don't feel that these substances deprive the subject from any sort of experience. If anything they enhance your experience. I think that the acknowledgment of 'oneness' which that startled business consultant had indicates the experience of a form of unity in the human species which is discovered through understanding your personal identity in relation to the collective. This experience is generally delivered noetically, in other words, it is not simple contemplated over, rather, it is experienced through a deeper sense of understanding. I think 'feeling' is one of the best words to describe this embodied sense of knowing.

Fractalist
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Posted 10/26/09 - 11:09 AM:	#13
I do think that this might have potential for psychotherapy .... however the feelings of (spiritual) well being often reported by those who have undergone these ayahuasca sessions would most likely be due to the high levels of monoamine oxidase inhibitor (maois) contained in the brew which is sometimes used as an antidepressant. It's effect on serotonin (or the brains sensitivity to it), is a better explanation for it's positive psychological effects than it's so called ''ego disintegrating hallucinations that morph ones psyche with the ocean of cosmic oneness'' Edited by Fractalist on 10/26/09 - 06:58 PM
A victim and perpetrator of man's infinite narcissism.

ciceronianus
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Posted 10/26/09 - 01:37 PM:	#14
I am reminded, once more, why I became a lawyer. Sometimes these forums depress me. So, for that matter, does being a lawyer. I must be-in-the-world in some troubling fashion.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

coolazice
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Posted 10/26/09 - 08:04 PM:	#15
I've taken a number of hallucinogens a number of times, including ayahuasca (with the full ceremonial regalia in the Amazon). I've had a lot of fun and learnt lots of things, but I'm still fairly disenchanted. So is everyone else I know who's tried similar things. Care to explain what's wrong with me?
One of the greatest weaknesses in human nature is to be dogmatic about issues of which we are ignorant. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio/Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Malleable
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Posted 11/21/09 - 02:05 AM:	#16
coolazice wrote: I've taken a number of hallucinogens a number of times, including ayahuasca (with the full ceremonial regalia in the Amazon). I've had a lot of fun and learnt lots of things, but I'm still fairly disenchanted. So is everyone else I know who's tried similar things. Care to explain what's wrong with me? Yeah, this post is old. I'm replying anyway. I don't think so called entheogenic substances such as LSD or Ayahuasca guarantee any sort of spiritual or psychological awakening. I think they offer the user an option. They open your mind to a myriad of philosophical possibilities. They push you into a world so foreign that you are temporarily forced to look at everything in a new perspective. The decision to follow-up on this sort of experience is up to the user, but for many people this initial push is what they need to consider different possibilities. Edit: Let me add this link. Jill Taylor talks about a stroke she has which sounds very similar to some of these experiences with substances. www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html Edited by Malleable on 11/21/09 - 02:12 AM. Reason: Added a link

ergot_trot
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Posted 11/24/09 - 08:41 PM:	#17
Ineffable Ant, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Psychedelics have changed my life in profoundly positive ways as well. Terence Mckenna had a great metaphor for what these chemicals do. Compare the mind to a bowl of water. The water is shifting and flowing but its movements are invisible to us. But drop a colored dye in the water ait illuminates the dynamics of the water that were already there, but invisible. Psychedelics are the dye that help us see how our minds work. They are not a blissed out nothing, for that take heroin or cocaine.

Malleable
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Posted 11/29/09 - 10:55 PM:	#18
ergot_trot wrote: Ineffable Ant, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But drop a colored dye in the water ait illuminates the dynamics of the water that were already there, but invisible. Psychedelics are the dye that help us see how our minds work. That's a perfect way to describe the experience.

Fractalist
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Posted 12/12/09 - 01:45 PM:	#19
ciceronianus wrote: I am reminded, once more, why I became a lawyer. Sometimes these forums depress me. So, for that matter, does being a lawyer. I must be-in-the-world in some troubling fashion. You seem to be talking only to yourself here, I don't follow.
A victim and perpetrator of man's infinite narcissism.

Willowz
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Posted 12/12/09 - 02:24 PM:	#20
Nihilistic Locomotive wrote: Sometimes I feel willing to blow myself up with plastic explosives just to get back there. Now why would you do such a thing?
Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo Faber est suae quisque fortunae. Cura te ipsum

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