Are All Beliefs Involuntary?: Philosophy Forums

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Are All Beliefs Involuntary?
Or can we (in at least some cases) choose what we believe?

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Are All Beliefs Involuntary?

aletheist
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Posted 06/19/09 - 12:54 PM:	#11
Incision wrote: I don't believe anyone directly chooses what to believe, but I do believe they indirectly choose what to believe. Can you elaborate on the difference? Incision wrote: And unfortunately, even without direct voluntarism, no one is always completely constrained by the available evidence: we are only so rational. So evidence plays a role, but not a decisive one; will plays a role, but not a decisive one: the belief is a deterministic result of all psychological conditions. I might be inclined to agree with this, if you took out the word "deterministic". I take it that you are a compatibilist? Pick an arbitrary belief, and see if you can choose to believe it. By definition, if it is "arbitrary", then I can choose to believe it, right?
"Be attentive, Be intelligent, Be reasonable, Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984)

mric
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Posted 06/19/09 - 01:15 PM:	#12
Whether or not an individual can choose their beliefs is a psychological question, not a philosophical one. It is entirely coherent to imagine that someone could choose to believe that they were made of glass, or that pi is 4. Indeed, there are psychoactive drugs that can induce fairly extreme gullibility, and I could voluntarily place myself under their influence with instructions to a friend to tell me to believe in something I currently don't believe in. However, if we met someone whose beliefs appeared to be voluntary in this way, we would probably be inclined to describe them as, at best, fairly irrational, and at worst insane (temporarily or permanently). I know aletheist considers at least some beliefs as voluntary, but I have only seen belief in a god suggested as such a belief. I would like to ask aletheist to do a couple of things for me, in the interests of philosophical research: First, could you identify some other voluntary beliefs, so we can identify some family resemblance among the sort of beliefs one chooses rather than otherwise. Secondly, could you please believe in Krishna for half an hour or so, and tell us what it was like. Perhaps write yourself a note to remind yourself to stop believing in him after that half hour (just in case you find you really like it), though if you did find that belief an improvement on your current set, you could be justified in keeping it. Personally, I am fairly unconvinced that beliefs that can be put on or taken off like a pair of shoes could really constitute the basis for the sort of relationship most monotheisms desire with their gods.

aletheist
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Posted 06/19/09 - 02:17 PM:	#13
mric wrote: First, could you identify some other voluntary beliefs, so we can identify some family resemblance among the sort of beliefs one chooses rather than otherwise. Let me give this one some thought. All I will say initially is that it is common to use the expression, "I choose to believe that . . ."; primarily in situations where the evidence is legitimately inconclusive, but sometimes in cases where the evidence is merely inconvenient. mric wrote: Secondly, could you please believe in Krishna for half an hour or so, and tell us what it was like. Why would I do that? I have no desire to believe in Krishna and am not aware of any evidence for his existence; although my guess is that someone who already believes in him could offer me some. I would suggest that there are cases where our desires color our evaluation of the evidence, which I guess just shifts the question to whether all desires are involuntary. Ultimately, it boils down to whether the will is involuntary, which would seem like a contradiction in terms--unless, of course, you hold to determinism (or at least compatibilism). mric wrote: Personally, I am fairly unconvinced that beliefs that can be put on or taken off like a pair of shoes could really constitute the basis for the sort of relationship most monotheisms desire with their gods. Such a belief would not just be voluntary; it would be arbitrary. I am taking the position that at least some beliefs are at least somewhat voluntary.
"Be attentive, Be intelligent, Be reasonable, Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984)

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Posted 06/19/09 - 10:15 PM:	#14
Mric wrote: ''Secondly, could you please believe in Krishna for half an hour or so, and tell us what it was like. Perhaps write yourself a note to remind yourself to stop believing in him after that half hour (just in case you find you really like it'') - It is a very good an complicated queston. Krishna is Supreme Person of God. But Really, Krishna is indian rubbish for the brain. Like a tale for fools.

Incision
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Posted 06/19/09 - 10:42 PM:	#15
aletheist wrote: Can you elaborate on the difference? Certainly. I can directly choose to lift my arm; I just choose to do it, and it happens. I indirectly choose to lift weights; I choose to lift my arm, and it curls the weights. There would be an obvious difference if I could lift weights directly: then I'd be telekinetic. Likewise, if I directly choose to believe that I'm Tyra Banks, then I just choose to believe it. If I indirectly choose, then I do things like repeat "I'm Tyra" over and over, collect evidence that I'm Tyra, avoid people who tell the truth, etc. I don't know whether everything is deterministic, but some systems are deterministic, for instance the action of billiard balls (on the level of ordinary experience). The angle of attack and force determine where the ball ends up, no free will involved. Beliefs are one of these deterministic games. I think you can, so to speak, change the force and angle of attack, but given that, your beliefs follow deterministically. By definition, if it is "arbitrary", then I can choose to believe it, right? That's terrible. I mean a typical belief. Pick a belief that's like every other in relevant respects, and see if you can believe it. I've tried it, it's not scary. It will further philosophy. And if you can choose your beliefs directly, you can always switch back. Of course, if I am wrong about beliefs being (at least somewhat) voluntary, you cannot blame me for holding that view--I have no say in the matter! You really don't have any say in the matter about some beliefs. Realistically speaking, there's nothing I could do to convince myself that I don't exist; I have no more freedom to do that than to eat Russia. You do have indirect say in some other cases, but you don't have direct say in any case.

Incision
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Posted 06/19/09 - 10:50 PM:	#16
mric wrote: Secondly, could you please believe in Krishna for half an hour or so, and tell us what it was like. Indeed. If people directly chose their beliefs, I'd imagine they'd do this as a party game. A drunk Jennifer might become a religious fundamentalist for the evening. She might to her horror realize according to her type of fundamentalism, it's wrong not to believe, so she can't change back, with consequences for all her family and friends. I've never seen that happen though, and I doubt it's due to my choice in acquaintances.

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Posted 06/20/09 - 01:03 AM:	#17
aletheist wrote: Okay, but this seems more like a preference than a belief; i.e., something that is uncontroversially subjective. I am more interested in whether all of our beliefs about the "objective" world are involuntary. I might argue that all of our beliefs are preferences. We have a preference for the truth. However, if you insist then let's get more detailed. The sky is blue is true not because it is actually blue but because our eyes are designed in such a way that the color spectrum that we can actually see causes the diffusion of light in the atmosphere to appear blue to us. If we could see a broader spectrum the sky would appear purplish to us. So our belief that it is blue is forced upon us by our subjective perception. How does this really differ from my perception that squash tastes like crap? I am forced to determine that by the construction of my taste buds. I can never find it true that squash is yummy. I can never find it true that the sky is purple. I can never find it true that Kiss is a good band. OTOH, I can deny any of those things, deceive myself and others about what I actually believe. It remains a tricky question.

nousPLOTINU
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Posted 06/20/09 - 08:08 AM:	#18
You would think that slavery was a voluntary belief because it was contrary to human Nature. Perhaps a bit of inculcation may help the issue.
It is not that I think I know, it is that I know when I think.

mric
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Posted 06/20/09 - 11:17 AM:	#19
aletheist wrote: Why would I do that? I have no desire to believe in Krishna and am not aware of any evidence for his existence; although my guess is that someone who already believes in him could offer me some. I would suggest that there are cases where our desires color our evaluation of the evidence, which I guess just shifts the question to whether all desires are involuntary. Ultimately, it boils down to whether the will is involuntary, which would seem like a contradiction in terms--unless, of course, you hold to determinism (or at least compatibilism). Here's a good reason to believe in Krishna for half an hour - it would demonstrate the voluntariness of beliefs, thus helping to undermine an otherwise potent and corrosive argument against the Christian God. If you don't believe that is a good enough reason, perhaps you could choose to believe that it is a good enough reason for a short period Logically the will itself is involuntary, whether you are a determinist or not. If I make a willed choice to eat cake, and the will itself is voluntary, I would need to make a willed choice to make the willed choice to eat cake. Oh dear, we seem to have an infinite regress, and I don't have time or capacity to make any actual decisions.

aletheist
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Posted 06/20/09 - 12:23 PM:	#20
Incision wrote: I don't know whether everything is deterministic, but some systems are deterministic, for instance the action of billiard balls (on the level of ordinary experience). The angle of attack and force determine where the ball ends up, no free will involved. But if I can decide which ball to hit, how hard to hit it, and which angles to play, then those aspects are not deterministic, are they? Incision wrote: Beliefs are one of these deterministic games. I think you can, so to speak, change the force and angle of attack, but given that, your beliefs follow deterministically. In your analogy, what would be an example of changing "the force and angle of attack," such that specific "beliefs follow deterministically"? Incision wrote: That's terrible. Thank you. Thank you very much. Incision wrote: You really don't have any say in the matter about some beliefs. Agreed, but the question on the floor is whether all beliefs are involuntary. Incision wrote: You do have indirect say in some other cases, but you don't have direct say in any case. What would be an example of having an "indirect say" in a particular belief?
"Be attentive, Be intelligent, Be reasonable, Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984)

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