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Amazing article on modern ethics
Swordfishtrombone
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Posted 01/27/08 - 11:23 AM:
Subject: Amazing article on modern ethics
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#1
The ethical issues we discuss on the forum here are often framed the same way as they've been debated for hundreds if not thousands of years. These discrepancies between moral versus utilitarian ethics, the metaphysical versus cultural foundation of "good", and the relationship between reason and ethics, are actually really way behind modern philosophy.

A great, almost mind-blowing summary of the "state of the art" of modern ethics appeared in last week's NY Times Magazine.

You should read this whole article (all 8 pages). It will really open up a new way of thinking about this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/...1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin

Paul - http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74

"Everything you can think of is true..." -Tom Waits
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Posted 01/28/08 - 03:15 AM:
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The moral sense, then, may be rooted in the design of the normal human brain.


Startling revelation? Youcan't get an ought from an is, but you might get one from an am

The most effective way to seem generous and fair, under harsh scrutiny, is to be generous and fair.


They cannot be ends in themselves because we must be self interested.rolling eyes

The qualitative difference between red and green, the tastiness of fruit and foulness of carrion, the scariness of heights and prettiness of flowers are design features of our common nervous system, and if our species had evolved in a different ecosystem or if we were missing a few genes, our reactions could go the other way. Now, if the distinction between right and wrong is also a product of brain wiring, why should we believe it is any more real than the distinction between red and green? And if it is just a collective hallucination, how could we argue that evils like genocide and slavery are wrong for everyone, rather than just distasteful to us?


Design? That can't be right! Why should 'we' believe our own brains? Good question.

This throws us back to wondering where those reasons could come from, if they are more than just figments of our brains. They certainly aren’t in the physical world like wavelength or mass. The only other option is that moral truths exist in some abstract Platonic realm, there for us to discover, perhaps in the same way that mathematical truths (according to most mathematicians) are there for us to discover.


Reasons are in the brain of the beholder.

Perhaps we are born with a rudimentary moral sense, and as soon as we build on it with moral reasoning, the nature of moral reality forces us to some conclusions but not others.


Perhaps we are born innocent and are corrupted by the sins of the fathers?

Moral realism, as this idea is called, is too rich for many philosophers’ blood. Yet a diluted version of the idea — if not a list of cosmically inscribed Thou-Shalts, then at least a few If-Thens — is not crazy. Two features of reality point any rational, self-preserving social agent in a moral direction. And they could provide a benchmark for determining when the judgments of our moral sense are aligned with morality itself.


The other external support for morality is a feature of rationality itself: that it cannot depend on the egocentric vantage point of the reasoner. If I appeal to you to do anything that affects me — to get off my foot, or tell me the time or not run me over with your car — then I can’t do it in a way that privileges my interests over yours (say, retaining my right to run you over with my car) if I want you to take me seriously. Not coincidentally, the core of this idea — the interchangeability of perspectives — keeps reappearing in history’s best-thought-through moral philosophies, including the Golden Rule (itself discovered many times); Spinoza’s Viewpoint of Eternity; the Social Contract of Hobbes, Rousseau and Locke; Kant’s Categorical Imperative; and Rawls’s Veil of Ignorance. Morality, then, is still something larger than our inherited moral sense, and the new science of the moral sense does not make moral reasoning and conviction obsolete. At the same time, its implications for our moral universe are profound.


The arrogance of psychology is to think that they can solve philosophical problems, when they haven't even begun to understand them!

The science of the moral sense also alerts us to ways in which our psychological makeup can get in the way of our arriving at the most defensible moral conclusions. The moral sense, we are learning, is as vulnerable to illusions as the other senses. It is apt to confuse morality per se with purity, status and conformity.


Make up your mind, (sorry, brain) Is morality something in the world that we sense or isn't it?rolling eyes

In the worst cases, the thoughtlessness of our brute intuitions can be celebrated as a virtue. In his influential essay “The Wisdom of Repugnance,” Leon Kass, former chair of the President’s Council on Bioethics, argued that we should disregard reason when it comes to cloning and other biomedical technologies and go with our gut: “We are repelled by the prospect of cloning human beings . . . because we intuit and feel, immediately and without argument, the violation of things that we rightfully hold dear. . . . In this age in which everything is held to be permissible so long as it is freely done . . . repugnance may be the only voice left that speaks up to defend the central core of our humanity. Shallow are the souls that have forgotten how to shudder.”There are, of course, good reasons to regulate human cloning, but the shudder test is not one of them.


Yet you just spent some time arguing that it is one of the five aspects of our moral intuitions.

The threat of human-induced climate change has become the occasion for a moralistic revival meeting. In many discussions, the cause of climate change is overindulgence (too many S.U.V.’s) and defilement (sullying the atmosphere), and the solution is temperance (conservation) and expiation (buying carbon offset coupons). Yet the experts agree that these numbers don’t add up: even if every last American became conscientious about his or her carbon emissions, the effects on climate change would be trifling, if for no other reason than that two billion Indians and Chinese are unlikely to copy our born-again abstemiousness. Though voluntary conservation may be one wedge in an effective carbon-reduction pie, the other wedges will have to be morally boring, like a carbon tax and new energy technologies, or even taboo, like nuclear power and deliberate manipulation of the ocean and atmosphere. Our habit of moralizing problems, merging them with intuitions of purity and contamination, and resting content when we feel the right feelings, can get in the way of doing the right thing.


The right thing? You've found some right thing?

Far from debunking morality, then, the science of the moral sense can advance it, by allowing us to see through the illusions that evolution and culture have saddled us with and to focus on goals we can share and defend. As Anton Chekhov wrote, “Man will become better when you show him what he is like.”


The scientist becomes the arbiter of 'real' as opposed to 'illusiary' morality.

I am indeed amazed - but not in a 'good' way.

...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti

"Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys
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Posted 01/28/08 - 06:51 AM:
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unenlightened wrote:
The arrogance of psychology is to think that they can solve philosophical problems, when they haven't even begun to understand them!

And the arrogance of philosophy is that it thinks it can understand the world from an armchair.

The experiments that people are now introducing to philosophy completely subvert the isolated thought experiments that have basically constituted its entire history.

Your selections and responses from the article don't relate the data which is the most interesting part. And again, is this some feature of philosophy that when looking at other fields you'll jump to the conclusions without reading the methods or data??

The point of the article is that traditional moral schemes are not at all reflected by the way human beings think, and the way humans think holds true cross-culturally, and is even reflected in the psychology of animals to the extent it is testable.

The trolley experiment is one great example: a trolley car is about to kill five rail workers; you can throw a switch to save those five workers, but you know it will kill one person on the other track. People uniformly think this is an appropriate action.

But change the scenario: instead of throwing a switch, the only way to save those five workers is to shove someone in front of the trolley. (this is a paraphrase). People uniformly and cross-culturally think this is an inappropriate action.

Why? The only difference between the two scenarios is that your hands get dirtier in the second. You are intentionally killing someone in both scenarios, so they're morally equal. You are intentionally saving a greater number in both scenarios, so the utility is the same. So the morality of the situation, in the actual minds of humans, is decided up front based on an instinct and then back-rationalized. And MOST of philosophical ethics (perhaps all of it) does this, whether it comes to a utilitarian or deontologic conclusion.

Why is this important? Because this is how people actually judge things, and how they decide what to do and how to act. Not out of the metaphysical good or the metaphysical ought, and not out of some quick utilitarian arithmetic. And it's no wonder that this moral responsiveness is traceable to functional brain imaging, has parallels in primates (like the starving macaques who won't press a button for food if that button also shocks a fellow macaque).

A similar study not included in this article is the Knobe Paradox, i.e. how humans based on subtle differences in presentation judge intent of actions:

http://www.unc.edu/~knobe/side-effects.html

Paul - http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74

"Everything you can think of is true..." -Tom Waits
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Posted 01/28/08 - 08:19 AM:
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The data is about the woolly and self serving way people justify their actions and intuitions. I have no problem with the data, I already know that people have all sorts of ideas about what is moral, and that they are not always inclined to do what they say they would, and show various biases and so on.

you wrote:
"So the morality of the situation, in the actual minds of humans, is decided up front based on an instinct and then back-rationalized."


and this is important,
you wrote:
Because this is how people actually judge things, and how they decide what to do and how to act.


So the question is, since this is 'clearly irrational', how should we decide things better? To which the clear answer comes:
Far from debunking morality, then, the science of the moral sense can advance it, by allowing us to see through the illusions that evolution and culture have saddled us with and to focus on goals we can share and defend.


Which is merely the so-called scientist usurping the role of moral authority - thanks, but no thanks. Where is the data on the moral superiority of scientists?



...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti

"Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys
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Posted 01/28/08 - 03:05 PM:
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Much of that research is conducted by philosophers, not by psychologists. It so happens that these fields move closer together as philosophical impulses are found to have a cognitive basis, and as psychological functions are found to have philosophical importance.

At any rate, I think it's extremely helpful to reexamine our historical moral schema from the vantage point of this analysis, i.e. the idea of instinctual reaction followed by a retroactive moralization (or perhaps rationalization in the case of philosophical ethics). This doesn't necessarily answer the question of "what ought we to do?", but is that the only purpose of ethics? I mean the study of aesthetics doesn't answer the question of what we should paint or sing, it stands on its own if it seeks to understand where ideas of beauty come from.

Because this type of science is descriptive and not prescriptive, I don't read into it any attempt by scientists to approach moral authority. In fact what I read is the denial that there is such a thing to begin with.

When I (for what it's worth) read your last quote, I have a completely different impression of it. To me it says that our entire history of moral philosophy has ignored common threads throughout humanity that now recognized can constitute the basis for a new moral understanding. In other words, maybe we can finally create moral schema that are acceptable pan-culturally, and we can understand whereupon different subcultures disagree.

That doesn't provide any answers -- it merely frames where the answers will appear.

Paul - http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74

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Posted 01/28/08 - 03:25 PM:
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Even if you call it data, you still can't get an ought from an is. I think the article is dangerously irrational, and I pointed towards some of the curious features in my first post. I agree with your reading of the last quote - that's what it says - 'a new moral understanding' puts it very well. Personally I haven't managed to implement the old understanding yet.

...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti

"Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys
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Posted 01/28/08 - 04:11 PM:
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My Ethics professor did the trolley experiment on the class, and the results were largely towards what the article said; the hospital example split cleanly in half.

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Posted 01/28/08 - 09:41 PM:
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I read here often but joined just to say that I think this article sucks, and agree with unenlightened. It starts out somewhat alright, and goes downhill. I think the author and you shoud read nietzsche's On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral sense. (and N in general)

http://www.davemckay.co.uk/philoso...uthandliesinanonmoralsense

now this is an amazing article

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Posted 01/29/08 - 03:47 AM:
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Nietzsche wrote:
Insofar as the individual wants to maintain himself against other individuals, he will under natural circumstances employ the intellect mainly for dissimulation. But at the same time, from boredom and necessity, man wishes to exist socially and with the herd; therefore, he needs to make peace and strives accordingly to banish from his world at least the most flagrant bellum omni contra omnes. This peace treaty brings in its wake something which appears to be the first step toward acquiring that puzzling truth drive: to wit, that which shall count as “truth” from now on is established.


Nietzsche wrote:
What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and; anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions- they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.


Nietzsche wrote:
The drive toward the formation of metaphors is the fundamental human drive, which one cannot for a single instant dispense with in thought, for one would thereby dispense with man himself. This drive is not truly vanquished and scarcely subdued by the fact that a regular and rigid new world is constructed as its prison from its own ephemeral products, the concepts.


Nietzsche wrote:
But when the same image has been generated millions of times and has been handed down for many generations and finally appears on the same occasion every time for all mankind, then it acquires at last the same meaning for men it would have if it were the sole necessary image and if the relationship of the original nerve stimulus to the generated image were a strictly causal one. In the same manner, an eternally repeated dream would certainly be felt and judged to be reality. But the hardening and congealing of a metaphor guarantees absolutely nothing concerning its necessity and exclusive justification.


Nietzsche wrote:
We have seen how it is originally language which works on the construction of concepts, a labor taken over in later ages by science. Just as the bee simultaneously constructs cells and fills them with honey, so science works unceasingly on this great columbarium of concepts, the graveyard of perceptions. It is always building new, higher stories and shoring up, cleaning, and renovating the old cells; above all, it takes pains to fill up this monstrously towering framework and to arrange therein the entire empirical world, which is to say, the anthropomorphic world.


Nietzsche wrote:
There are ages in which the rational man and the intuitive man stand side by side, the one in fear of intuition, the other with scorn for abstraction. The latter is just as irrational as the former is inartistic. They both desire to rule over life: the former, by knowing how to meet his principle needs by means of foresight, prudence, and regularity; the latter, by disregarding these needs and, as an “overjoyed hero,” counting as real only that life which has been disguised as illusion and beauty.


And yet It seems to me that there are not two kinds of man, intuitive and rational, but one kind in conflict with himself. Rationality finds itself making a moral judgement - intuitively valuing 'truth'. Scientifically, rationally, I have to start with the observation that right here, right now there is at least a centre of seeing, of a self seeing universe. That the seeing is partial, and clouded in metaphor, and cannot be 'detached' from what is seen is just another way of saying that intuition and rationality cannot function separately. But what might be possible for the individual and for mankind, is to end the conflict. This cannot be done, however, by one side gaining the victory.

...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti

"Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys
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Posted 01/29/08 - 05:14 AM:
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gforce677 wrote:
I think the author and you shoud read nietzsche's On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral sense. (and N in general)

Nietzsche is one of my favorite philosophers, I've read both this and many other works of his.

At the same time, Nietzsche is very much entrenched in the opening days of modernism, which finally begins to ask the right questions but doesn't know how to achieve the answers. And Nietzsche's dogmatism can be a bit much. Of his contemporaries, I think Dostoyevsky did a far better job getting at the root of how humans think and make moral decisions, though for Dostoyevsky it was expository through his characters. Dostoyevsky presaged modern psychiatry and psychology better than did Nietzsche.

In response to unenlightened:
This cannot be done, however, by one side gaining the victory.

There isn't one side. There are MANY sides. Modern philosophers are turning to surveys and experimentation, in part because ethical philosophy is worthless if it bears no resemblance to how people process ideas and language. If you read the article I've linked as somehow drawing this artificial distinction between the rational and intuitive, or between philosophy and science, then you haven't really read it. The article (and more importantly the subject of experimental philosophy) shows how productive a marriage there can be between philosophy and experimental sciences.

Edited by Swordfishtrombone on 01/29/08 - 05:21 AM

Paul - http://www.pbase.com/drpablo74

"Everything you can think of is true..." -Tom Waits
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