Philosophy Forums
Forums Articles Gallery Links


Register Login Members Calendar New Posts Search Chat Help
Philosophy Forums » General Philosophy » Affecting » Affecting

Affecting

PrintPrint


Page: 1 2 3

Affecting
NothingtoSay
Assistant Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 287
Posted 08/04/09 - 05:57 AM:
Subject: Effect 		quote post
#1
Lets say X and Y can have effect A on body Z. Now, X can have the effect A on Z, and Y can have the effect A on Z. Can X and Y affect A on Z at exactly the same time?
Do you think two things, with each being able to affect a certain body the same way, can effect this certain body at the same time?
Even if X had effect A, and Y had effect B, can X and Y affect body Z at the same time?

I'm having a hard time trying to see whether two things can affect something at the exact same time...

Edited by NothingtoSay on 08/04/09 - 06:48 AM
Doug Shaver
Aspirant

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Location: San Bernardino, Calif.

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 23
Posted 08/04/09 - 06:35 AM:
quote post
#2
NothingtoSay wrote:
I'm having a hard time trying to see whether two things can effect something at the exact same time...


Two comments:

1. It would be easier to understand you if you learned the difference between effect and affect.

2. A specific example of what you're asking about would make it even more easy.
NothingtoSay
Assistant Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 287
Posted 08/04/09 - 06:45 AM:
quote post
#3
I learned it, I just didn't concentrate on it apparently. I'll fix the OP.

Can two things affect something at the same time? Can, say, personality be shaped by nature and nurture at the same time? What do you think, Doug Shaver?
wuliheron
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Location: Newport News, Va

Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 4153
Posted 08/04/09 - 08:37 AM:
quote post
#4
The fundamental principle of synergy applies. This is the observation that the sum of any two things is greater than, or at least different from, the mere sum of its parts. An electron and a proton, for example, make up a hydrogen atom that has different properties than the particles possess seperately. Thus, without both nature and nurture together you cannot have a human being.
NothingtoSay
Assistant Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 287
Posted 08/04/09 - 02:22 PM:
quote post
#5
But then the outcome would be different than when one thing has its effect on a body, no? The personality (result) would be different if it had only been molded by nature.

I also take it that an interaction (a synergy) between the affecting things must take place before affecting something? Is it possible for two things that do not interact together first to affect something at the same time (i.e., two things that cannot interact together, two independent things, like possibly the body's soul and nature)?
NothingtoSay
Assistant Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 287
Posted 08/04/09 - 03:13 PM:
quote post
#6
To be clearer:

Does nurture and nature, for example, have to interact with each other first to affect something at the same time?
And even if those two had the same effects, their combined effect would be different from their effects when separated (the nature and nurture effect would be different from the nature effect), right?

Is it possible for two things independent of each other to affect something at the same time?


Edited by NothingtoSay on 08/04/09 - 03:52 PM
wuliheron
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Location: Newport News, Va

Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 4153
Posted 08/04/09 - 03:33 PM:
quote post
#7
Here you are treading on metaphysical territory.

For example, field theory in physics predicts that it is impossible for anything to occur which does not have an effect on everything else. For example, supposidly the gravitational field permeates the entire universe and the beating of a butterfly's wings will have some effect, no matter how small, on the motion of a planet on the other side of the universe. Thus you could not have two things affecting a third without also affecting each other. However, that is just field theory and is not the last word on the subject. Likewise, the effect would be so small in most cases that for all practical purposes it could be ignored.

The most serious difficulty with answering your question is that it lacks a specific context much less a specific example. The only example you give is that of nature verses nurture in determining human personality and, thus far, no one has ever documented the existence of a person raised outside of nature or nurture. Even the most extreme case I know of involved a girl whose father kept here locked in a room, never spoke to her, and only fed and cleaned her room when absolutely necessary. However, for her to survive at all he had to at least provide that much nurturing.

Context is of paramount importance in such questions. For example, in the quantum realm phenomena often occur simultaneously that do not do so in other contexts. In fact, it is not even known yet whether quanta experience the same linear progression of time that we do, they may well go backwards in time as easily as they do forward.

And last but not least, there are linguistic concerns surrounding your question. When talking on a metaphysical level words have no demonstrable meaning and, therefore, can be interpreted to mean anything. For example, is it even meaningful to speak of nature without nurture or are the two relative terms like up and down. Where do you draw the line between the two if it is indeed possible?
NothingtoSay
Assistant Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 287
Posted 08/04/09 - 04:17 PM:
quote post
#8
wuliheron wrote:
Here you are treading on metaphysical territory.

I was actually going to post this in the Logic forum.

wuliheron wrote:

For example, field theory in physics predicts that it is impossible for anything to occur which does not have an effect on everything else. For example, supposidly the gravitational field permeates the entire universe and the beating of a butterfly's wings will have some effect, no matter how small, on the motion of a planet on the other side of the universe. Thus you could not have two things affecting a third without also affecting each other. However, that is just field theory and is not the last word on the subject. Likewise, the effect would be so small in most cases that for all practical purposes it could be ignored.

So by this everything effects everything by default? Something would be due to the effect of everything, from small to big?
But do you think the question might still hold even given this theory, wuliheron? Do we know for certain whether things (effects) take place at exactly the same time? or at different times? If everything affects everything, does that mean that everything affects everything at the same time?

I hope I'm making sense.

wuliheron wrote:

The most serious difficulty with answering your question is that it lacks a specific context much less a specific example. The only example you give is that of nature verses nurture in determining human personality and, thus far, no one has ever documented the existence of a person raised outside of nature or nurture. Even the most extreme case I know of involved a girl whose father kept here locked in a room, never spoke to her, and only fed and cleaned her room when absolutely necessary. However, for her to survive at all he had to at least provide that much nurturing.

Context is of paramount importance in such questions. For example, in the quantum realm phenomena often occur simultaneously that do not do so in other contexts. In fact, it is not even known yet whether quanta experience the same linear progression of time that we do, they may well go backwards in time as easily as they do forward.


Originally I was looking into whether or not the soul was responsible for personality. I had had a discussion with someone on the nature of the soul and he claimed that it was responsible for personality, rather, that it was personality which is unique to every person. I asked him whether nature and nurture can affect the soul (personality) and he said yes. Reflecting upon this, I asked myself how the soul can be responsible for personality while nature (or nurture, or something else) affects personality... "Doesn't one of them has to affect the personality first?" I asked myself.

wuliheron wrote:

And last but not least, there are linguistic concerns surrounding your question. When talking on a metaphysical level words have no demonstrable meaning and, therefore, can be interpreted to mean anything. For example, is it even meaningful to speak of nature without nurture or are the two relative terms like up and down. Where do you draw the line between the two if it is indeed possible?


This is why I tried to separate the affecting things and the affected body (i.e., X having effect A and Y having effect B, and body Z being the affected).
wuliheron
Tenured Poster
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 02, 2003
Location: Newport News, Va

Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 4153
Posted 08/04/09 - 09:48 PM:
quote post
#9
NothingtoSay wrote:

So by this everything effects everything by default? Something would be due to the effect of everything, from small to big?
But do you think the question might still hold even given this theory, wuliheron? Do we know for certain whether things (effects) take place at exactly the same time? or at different times? If everything affects everything, does that mean that everything affects everything at the same time?



Relativity says things happen in a specific order, at least, they do from a human viewpoint. Because nothing can travel faster than the speed of light and things are at different distances from each other events can occur at different times (from an observer's particular viewpoint) in an orderly fashion. However even this theory does not rule out the possibility of two events occuring simultaneously.


NothingtoSay wrote:
I hope I'm making sense.

Originally I was looking into whether or not the soul was responsible for personality. I had had a discussion with someone on the nature of the soul and he claimed that it was responsible for personality, rather, that it was personality which is unique to every person. I asked him whether nature and nurture can affect the soul (personality) and he said yes. Reflecting upon this, I asked myself how the soul can be responsible for personality while nature (or nurture, or something else) affects personality... "Doesn't one of them has to affect the personality first?" I asked myself.

This is why I tried to separate the affecting things and the affected body (i.e., X having effect A and Y having effect B, and body Z being the affected).


Souls are supposed to be supernatural in origin and don't necessarily obey any manmade logic much less natural laws. It's a little like asking whether God can create a rock big enough that he can't pick it up. I suppose it is something you will have to decide for yourself.
Doug Shaver
Aspirant

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 02, 2009
Location: San Bernardino, Calif.

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 23
Posted 08/08/09 - 06:24 PM:
quote post
#10
NothingtoSay wrote:
Can two things affect something at the same time? Can, say, personality be shaped by nature and nurture at the same time? What do you think, Doug Shaver?


I think the answer to both questions is yes. And I don't think it's all that controversial, either. I think it's about as obvious as anything gets.
Download thread as

Page: 1 2 3



Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.

Powered by WSN Forum

The time is now 11/21/09 - 07:14 PM.