Aesthetic differences and forgery: Philosophy Forums

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Aesthetic differences and forgery
Is there a difference between two art works which you can not tell apart?

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Aesthetic differences and forgery

jsidelko
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Posted 11/22/09 - 03:58 PM:

#11

There are two axiological values we consider when buying a piece of art: 1. Its aesthetic value 2. And its monetary value, e.g., is it rare, done by a famous artist, desired to be owned by a lot of people, etc.

There are thousands, if not millions, of unknown artists who produce masterpiece level work but are ignored because they are not famous. On the other side you had 86 IQ Andy Warhol who made millions selling paintings of soup cans.

thanatos

RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie
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Posted 11/23/09 - 11:45 PM:	#12
I believe the original work is more valueable because without it there could not be a forgery.
To be, or not to be, that is the question-Shakesphere There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. -Shakesphere And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-Aristotle The unexamined life is not worth living-Socrates

happysquid08
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Posted 11/24/09 - 04:53 PM:	#13
I define art as expression, so I believe that any forgery, even a good one, is not truly art. It is just some paint flopped onto a canvas for the purpose of making money or proving technical skill. Art is not based on technical skill; look at Picasso. It is not technique, but the passion, the idea, the connection between minds, that makes a piece truly become art. I have more respect for an original painting because of the creativity and passion the artist put into the work. The idea put forth by the artist is his alone through that work. That piece is a reflection of the mind of the artist, which is why so many people are attracted to original paintings: the artist spilled his thoughts on that canvas, his realm of thought touches mine through this stroke of paint, his raw idea helps frame my assumptions about the world. The individual journey of a painting is a growing experience that connects both the painter and the person in the museum looking at it. A forgery is a copy, an imitation, of an original artist's idea, a sham of a creation, a false connection, an unsame sameness. It is not the same canvas that that artist worked on, not the same idea that inspired the artist to sketch, not the same hand that carved with the chisel, but it is the same image. It is a carbon copy. Should a printout of the Mona Lisa from the computer be worth the same as the real painting? No, of course not. So then, why should a forgery be considered for such an honor?

RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie
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Posted 11/24/09 - 04:56 PM:	#14
RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie wrote: I believe the original work is more valueable because without it there could not be a forgery. But this is just my subjective opinion. For others who believe beauty is the ability to forge something then the forgery would be more beautiful.
To be, or not to be, that is the question-Shakesphere There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. -Shakesphere And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-Aristotle The unexamined life is not worth living-Socrates

happysquid08
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Posted 11/24/09 - 05:03 PM:	#15
RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie wrote: But this is just my subjective opinion. For others who believe beauty is the ability to forge something then the forgery would be more beautiful. Could we not argue that art itself is the ability to forge a fake reality of the world we perceive? Could all art be forged by this definition? I guess it depends on your definition of forgery; mine is the copying of the work of another homo sapiens sapiens. Whether or not a forgery is beautiful or not, it still lacks the essential originality, passion, and connection the original piece had, giving me reason to prefer the original. Of course, some people may not care whether or not their paintings are full of passion; it's all in how you look at it, and what appeals to your sensibilities. Art is ambiguous like that.

RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie
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Posted 11/24/09 - 05:13 PM:	#16
happysquid08 wrote: Could we not argue that art itself is the ability to forge a fake reality of the world we perceive? Could all art be forged by this definition? Why is it fake? Do you mean not physically identical? What about innovation? Is that just forgery of many things combined to make someting new?
To be, or not to be, that is the question-Shakesphere There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. -Shakesphere And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-Aristotle The unexamined life is not worth living-Socrates

happysquid08
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Posted 11/24/09 - 05:26 PM:	#17
I was just making the point that art is the expression of the world around us, and that since it is never completely free of influence from other ideas, art is a cumulative copy of the world and of humanity. Art is an extension of our perception, an imposed reality people create, though within the sphere of reality. Is that a pipe? No, it's not a pipe, it's a painting of a pipe. Innovation is the mixture of different ideas into a new idea, and the primary ideas come from assumptions rooted in the real world. (Let's get into what is real and what isn't another time.) Innovation is inherently separate from forgery, however, because as innovation is the cumulative result of different ideas into one new one, forgery is the attempt to create an identical copy of an idea. There is no originality, no true creation. Forgery cannot be compared to true art because it lacks what is most essential: self-questioning, self-discovery, communication between people with that raw idea, and passion. There is no substitute for true art.

RealityIsAnAnagramOfTryALie
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Posted 11/24/09 - 07:07 PM:	#18
Yes I understand, and agree, I was just suggesting rephrasal.
To be, or not to be, that is the question-Shakesphere There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. -Shakesphere And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-Aristotle The unexamined life is not worth living-Socrates

Dave C
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Posted 11/26/09 - 04:57 PM:	#19
unenlightened you are brilliant. You make me think of an eastern philosopher as in "snatch the copy from my hand, grasshopper."

zOOmz
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Posted 12/20/09 - 09:35 PM:	#20
A forgery is really just a labor-intensive hand made copy of the original. If a person sees the forgery with the same aesthetic reactions as the original, at this point, there are no differences. Does the aesthetic value change in the mind of the viewer if he realizes that this is a fake? Aesthetics are created in the mind, like everything else that we perceive. The mind creates an emotional bias about value/worth. But does this extend to say that this is beautiful and the same configuration is less beautiful? I am proposing an example of my own reactions as an artist. If I create a work of art and find it aesthetically pleasing, and then view another person's perfect forgery of it, I would not find it any less beautiful than my own. Because it is like a reflection of my own work, and therefore equally aesthetic.
got Zen? "Reality is that which doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it." Phillip K. Dick (thanks dimka)

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