Absurdism: Philosophy Forums

Calendar

Quick Links open

New Posts Member List

Help

Philosophy Forums » General Philosophy » Absurdism » Absurdism

Absurdism
Absurdism

Absurdism

oneangryzeus
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 6

Posted 05/09/08 - 08:27 AM: Subject: Absurdism	#1
I would love to open a discussion about absurdism. The basic idea is that the human being craves unity but the world is "indifferent" (aka the world isn't structured but is chaotic) to our desires. Therefore, life is meaningless but, rather than fall into deep despair, one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions (i.e. social restrictions, NOT moral restrictions which may cause a problem but one should realize that others are in the same situation as you, so you shouldn't harm them in anyway although this argument is a little flimsy). In my own personal philosophy, I try to infuse this philosophical idea with the idea of laughter. The idea of freedom should bring you happiness above all else. I thus try to laugh at life and the absurdity of it. Please discuss. Any thoughts or problems with the ideas? Own personal takes on the ideas? Anything?

cortes
Professor

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Total Topics: 29
Total Posts: 972

Posted 05/09/08 - 08:46 AM:	#2
This is not far from what I have proposed in "Philosophy of Conquistadorianism" though I have taken a somewhat different path thereafter. It is not so much that life is "therefore" meangingless as that we are free to pursue our own meaning.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

oneangryzeus
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 6

Posted 05/09/08 - 08:57 AM:	#3
Yea, I think there is definitely an underlying sense of that in absurdism. If you can't come to grips with the meaninglessness of life, then, as Camus puts it, you can take the "leap" to something bigger. But, Camus also states that partaking in that "leap" means you're not being true to yourself or to the full meaning of the absurdity of the world.

keda
dumbo

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Finland
Total Topics: 21
Total Posts: 2260

Posted 05/09/08 - 09:04 AM:	#4
Laughter is often connected with absurdity, because we laugh at things that are contrary to ones expectations. Smile or laughter is connected with breaking a tension that existed by the expectations defined in a particular situation. It is an expression of relief and freedom of previously existing constraints.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

The Escapist
Supreme Being (retired)

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 92

Posted 05/09/08 - 01:56 PM:	#5
oneangryzeus wrote: I would love to open a discussion about absurdism. The basic idea is that the human being craves unity but the world is "indifferent" (aka the world isn't structured but is chaotic) to our desires. Therefore, life is meaningless... Please discuss. Any thoughts or problems with the ideas? Own personal takes on the ideas? Anything? Does the human being crave unity? I'm not sure I crave unity, and I am human. What is this "unity" that I am supposed to crave? The world is not indifferent to our desires (figuratively speaking), and it is structured. Our desires are based on the structure of the world and its ability to fulfil our desires. This is true of lower animals too I think, but we are unique in our ability to modify the world to satisfy our desires, and our ability to modify our desires in line with what a modified world can provide. I don't see how you get from "the world is indifferent" to "life is meaningless". Life is what gives an otherwise formless universe structure.
_____________________ Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

The_Rational_Animal
Übermensch

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 21, 2008
Location: München, Germany
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 137

Posted 05/09/08 - 02:55 PM:	#6
oneangryzeus wrote: life is meaningless but, rather than fall into deep despair, one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions... Why should I fall into "deep despair" if life is meaningless? The very question of "the meaning of life" is meaningless; and a philosophy built on a meaningless question is likewise meaningless. Things in your life (chairs, desks, lamps) can have meaning, but to say that life can even have meaning is nonsensical. The answer to the question applies only to those living life: the question itself suffers from recursion, where the function being defined is applied within its own definition. Thus, you do not need a metaphysical scheme to tell you that your life is determined by you and you alone, and it's your responsibility to make the best of it.

oneangryzeus
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 6

Posted 05/09/08 - 05:39 PM:	#7
The unity you crave is applying language to the world, rational thought, planning out your life, all of which requires the world to be structured when it isn't. Anything can happen at any time. Although the possibilities of you walking into a street and getting hit by a car or a meteor falling on your entire family, etc. is rare, it can still happen. The fact that the human being lives without thinking of these possible events (because worrying your whole life would not be a good way to live) is in itself a craving for unity. The world is not structured, it is chaotic. The fact that you think it's structured is your mind's desire for such structure and your ignorance (aka ignoring) of the chaos of the world. And to Rational Animal, could you explain your point a bit deeper?

The_Rational_Animal
Übermensch

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 21, 2008
Location: München, Germany
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 137

Posted 05/09/08 - 07:27 PM:	#8
oneangryzeus wrote: And to Rational Animal, could you explain your point a bit deeper? Think of "the meaning of life" this way: you find a "divine" dictionary, one with all definitions to every word of all human languages. Under the English section, you look up under the L's, and find the entry for life. But what is the meaning of life? The definition reads: "(see Life)". This is recursion. Consider, then, the statement "the meaning of y", where 'y' is any word. "The meaning of y" assesses the significance, function, purpose, intent, importance of 'y' in the context of how 'y' is used in life ('y', whatever it is, cannot have any function or purpose when no one is alive to use it!). If 'y' is a hammer or a lake, "the meaning of hammers" and "the meaning of lakes" are valid, meaningful questions. However, "the meaning of y", when 'y' = 'life', is recursive because it essentially asks "what is the meaning of life (in life)?" If one were to provide an answer, that answer would contain self-reference and hence wouldn't answer the question at all.
_____________________ "Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." ~Ayn Rand

The Escapist
Supreme Being (retired)

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 92

Posted 05/10/08 - 02:51 AM:	#9
oneangryzeus wrote: The unity you crave is applying language to the world, rational thought, planning out your life, all of which requires the world to be structured when it isn't. Anything can happen at any time. Although the possibilities of you walking into a street and getting hit by a car or a meteor falling on your entire family, etc. is rare, it can still happen. The fact that the human being lives without thinking of these possible events (because worrying your whole life would not be a good way to live) is in itself a craving for unity. The world is not structured, it is chaotic. The fact that you think it's structured is your mind's desire for such structure and your ignorance (aka ignoring) of the chaos of the world. Well Zeus, if you think the world is unstructured, I would like you to give an example of something that is structured. What is a "structure"? I think you are just wrong. I do "apply language to the world" quite effectively, in fact I do it all day, as I am a professional translator. I'm not sure about you, but I do have rational thoughts. Some of the stuff I translate is technical, safety-related, some of it is legal. If I didn't have rational thoughts about the meaning of the texts I work on, my clients would quickly become disenchanted with me. I worry about being hit by a car or a meteorite in a rational way. Because you are wrong, and not "anything can happen", I worry more about cars than meteorites. That's because the structure of the world makes being hit by a car much more likely. I still don't know what you mean by "unity" and I'm starting to think you don't either.
_____________________ Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

Landlady
curious skeptic

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 09, 2007
Location: USA
Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 468

Posted 05/10/08 - 08:38 AM:	#10
oneangryzeus wrote: The basic idea is that the human being craves unity but the world is "indifferent" (aka the world isn't structured but is chaotic) to our desires. Therefore, life is meaningless but, rather than fall into deep despair, one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions. In my own personal philosophy, I try to infuse this philosophical idea with the idea of laughter. I think structure definitely exists in nature (hierarchy in animal life, as well as symmetry in crystal formations, for example), it just doesn’t have an apparent meaning or purpose. Even survival of life, it can be argued, is accidental (due to random mutations that allow it to withstand the pressures of a current environment). oneangryzeus wrote: The idea of freedom should bring you happiness above all else. I thus try to laugh at life and the absurdity of it. I would say that it is more of a bittersweet happiness. Everything being perceived as absurd, nothing can justify being happy about, except, perhaps, your awareness of your own be-ing in the world, which you also know will not last. Laughter has an effect of distancing one from the phenomenon (it is often used to break up an unpleasant tension among the parties, for instance), and as such, it can be seen as sort of an escape route in which, instead of absorbing/accepting the realization (which can be painful), one chooses to distance himself from it (and thus, manage to dull the pain).
_____________________ There is time to laugh and there is time not to laugh, and this is not one of them. - Insp. Clouseau. From the moment absurdity is recognized, it becomes a passion, the most harrowing of all. But whether or not one can live with one's passions, whether or not one can accept their law, which is to burn the heart they simultaneously exalt--that is the whole question. � Camus.

The Escapist
Supreme Being (retired)

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 92

Posted 05/10/08 - 01:53 PM:	#11
Landlady wrote: I think structure definitely exists in nature (hierarchy in animal life, as well as symmetry in crystal formations, for example), it just doesn’t have an apparent meaning or purpose. Do you mean you can't see the purpose of a bird's wing?
_____________________ Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

98765
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 10, 2008
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 3

Posted 05/10/08 - 02:09 PM:	#12
one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions I think that the one big restriction on the way we live our lives is the need to be happy. So I believe that abstracting and thinking about the absurdity of life can only go so far. For example, imagine being constantly being ridiculed by other people because of some odd feature of your appearence. Of course, you could reason that since we are liviing in this vast and strange universe, what you look like really doesnt matter that much. And you could use this thought to feel better about your situation to some extent. But at the end of the day we all have a basic human need to be liked and admired by other people, and I believe no amount of intellectualising can allow you to escape from this fact.

Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41

Posted 05/11/08 - 09:16 AM:	#13
oneangryzeus wrote: I would love to open a discussion about absurdism. The basic idea is that the human being craves unity but the world is "indifferent" (aka the world isn't structured but is chaotic) to our desires. Therefore, life is meaningless but, rather than fall into deep despair, one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions (i.e. social restrictions, NOT moral restrictions which may cause a problem but one should realize that others are in the same situation as you, so you shouldn't harm them in anyway although this argument is a little flimsy). In my own personal philosophy, I try to infuse this philosophical idea with the idea of laughter. The idea of freedom should bring you happiness above all else. I thus try to laugh at life and the absurdity of it. Please discuss. Any thoughts or problems with the ideas? Own personal takes on the ideas? Anything? Absurdism seems to be largely consistent with Absurdism, but I would change the description: The human being craves, period -- not unity, but everything. Human desires are without end, but the world is indifferent to these desires. Rather than falling into despair, you let these desires go and recognize the inherent emptiness of the world, thus (paradoxically) being totally free and perfectly happy.

The Escapist
Supreme Being (retired)

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 92

Posted 05/11/08 - 11:15 AM:	#14
Individual wrote: Absurdism seems to be largely consistent with Absurdism, Phew but I would change the description: The human being craves, period -- not unity, but everything. Human desires are without end, but the world is indifferent to these desires. Rather than falling into despair, you let these desires go and recognize the inherent emptiness of the world, thus (paradoxically) being totally free and perfectly happy. No, the world isn't indifferent to our desires, in the figurative sense that the world can have an attitude like "indifference". The world, figuratively speaking, understands our desires and attempts to satisfy them. Human desires are not without end. I am a human, I don't think I'm at all extraordinary, and my desires are fairly limited, and I have never found them terribly difficult to satisfy. There's no reason to despair at ordinary life, it can be wonderful. Your Buddhism has to say there is something unsatisfactory in ordinary life to justify its existence. It then offers an imaginary solution. It's a religion, not just a philosophy, an inherently dismal, pleasure-denying, penitential religion. I'm happy enough now, without letting go of my desires. I don't believe you can really deliver on your promise of "perfect happiness" and "total freedom" in return for me giving up desires. Life involves both happiness and unhappiness. Would you expect an accomplished Buddhist to be "perfectly happy" at the death of a child? Would that be a good thing?
_____________________ Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41

Posted 05/11/08 - 02:04 PM:	#15
The Escapist wrote: Phew Typo: I meant to say Buddhism! Absurdism is largely consistent with Buddhism! The Escapist wrote: No, the world isn't indifferent to our desires, in the figurative sense that the world can have an attitude like "indifference". The world, figuratively speaking, understands our desires and attempts to satisfy them. If the world, figuratively speaking, understood our desires and attempted to satisfy them, there would be no labor, poverty, or suffering. The world is indifferent, so some of us are lucky while others are unfortunate. All of us -- whether fortunate or not -- have to work to protect what we were given and what we have earned, and nothing we can do can keep it perfectly safe. The Escapist wrote: Human desires are not without end. I am a human, I don't think I'm at all extraordinary, and my desires are fairly limited, and I have never found them terribly difficult to satisfy. There's no reason to despair at ordinary life, it can be wonderful. The idea that "human desires are limitless," is a basic principle of economics -- not just Keynesian economics, but the classical economics of classical liberals and the Austrian school too. Your desires appear to be limited only because your means are limited. A simple thought-experiment: What if you had everything you want right now? It has to be something tangible and imaginable. The abstract idea, "Everything I want," like, "Perfect happiness," is just an abstraction. Things like magic or time travel are also fantasies. Instead, imagine a realistic situation: Imagine, for instance, winning the lottery or, through intelligent business investment, becoming the richest man in the world. It still leaves you with something lacking. There is always something more to be had. Things we don't yet have allure us and once we have them, eventually they are boring. So, we buy clothes, movies, cars, and so on, but eventually we need new ones. There also isn't any correlation between wealth and happiness, other than the fact that people who have a basic subsistence are a bit more happy than those who are starving to death, dying of disease, and so on. There isn't any meaningful difference between the happiness of those who are lower middle-class and those who are upper-class. The Escapist wrote: Your Buddhism has to say there is something unsatisfactory in ordinary life to justify its existence. It then offers an imaginary solution. It's a religion, not just a philosophy, an inherently dismal, pleasure-denying, penitential religion. I'm happy enough now, without letting go of my desires. I don't believe you can really deliver on your promise of "perfect happiness" and "total freedom" in return for me giving up desires. Life involves both happiness and unhappiness. Would you expect an accomplished Buddhist to be "perfectly happy" at the death of a child? Would that be a good thing? Buddhism does claim that life is inherently unsatisfactory, but it does not require people to believe this if it isn't true for them. If your life is good, then yes, ignore Buddhism, but don't cause harm to others and be honest with yourself. It does not deny pleasure, but sees the psychological benefit in renouncing it but not to the point of personal misery, as in Jainism. Physical pleasure is psychologically addicting and this, along with selfishness, tends to be the root of all suffering. Every unethical act anyone ever does is rooted in the selfish pursuit of pleasure. The notion of perfect joy is defined by: Friendliness (Metta) Compassion (Karuna) Sympathetic joy (Mudita) Equanimity (Upekkha) These feelings are perfect forms of joy because they are always available and don't require any particular physical forms. Other forms of pleasure require some kind of physical form -- sex, drugs, and so on -- but you can be friendly with anyone, compassionate to anyone, if you delight in others' joy you are incredibly happy, and if you are equanimous, there is nothing which seems more or less joyous than anything else. For an accomplished Buddhist, they would not see a dying child as anything more than it is. They would not place values on it like "unfortunate," or "justified," because pity is a negative, masochistic emotion which doesn't accomplish anything.

Landlady
curious skeptic

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 09, 2007
Location: USA
Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 468

Posted 05/11/08 - 08:13 PM:	#16
Landlady wrote: I think structure definitely exists in nature (hierarchy in animal life, as well as symmetry in crystal formations, for example), it just doesn’t have an apparent meaning or purpose. The Escapist wrote: Do you mean you can't see the purpose of a bird's wing? Your view is too shortsighted here. I can see what a function of individual biological forms (organs) is, but there no apparent purpose behind their existence—their existence (their emergence into existence) is accidental. All life forms possess forms that enable them to stay in existence, but the process that leads to creation of these forms (evolution) does not have an apparent purpose. Within a greater scheme of things, a bird’s wing does not have a purpose, in the same way that our planet or our solar system does not have a purpose. What is the purpose of a wheel within a machine that does not have an apparent purpose? Life will not exist forever. So, what, then, is the purpose of the existence of life (and the multitude of forms, like a wing, or a beak, within it)? What is the purpose behind a wing? What is the purpose of flying? What is the purpose of evading predators, feeding, surviving, and procreating? What is THE purpose that encompasses all life forms, including an existence of a form of a bird’s wing? There is no underlying purpose.
_____________________ There is time to laugh and there is time not to laugh, and this is not one of them. - Insp. Clouseau. From the moment absurdity is recognized, it becomes a passion, the most harrowing of all. But whether or not one can live with one's passions, whether or not one can accept their law, which is to burn the heart they simultaneously exalt--that is the whole question. � Camus.

oneangryzeus
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 6

Posted 05/12/08 - 08:31 AM:	#17
Escapist: you believe that everything can be explained through language? how does a human not crave unity? we constantly live structured days, we constantly plan, and we're always looking for something to explain events in which we know nothing (there's a psychology experiment about pigeons which proves this as well as your everyday life: superstition, etc.) Rational Animal: i understand the principle but im going to consider it an excuse to not answer the question. all philosphy aims toward an explanation to life (through morality, ways to live life, etc.) and to use such logic does make sense but its irrelevant in the real-world for everyone craves for a meaning Individual: you have changed my ideas on absurdism and I thank you but I still hold the idea that the human craves unity but you have definitley expanded the idea

98765
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 10, 2008
Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 3

Posted 05/12/08 - 08:49 AM:	#18
oneangryzeus (or anyone else), can you come up with an example? i.e an example of a restriction you can free yourself from by absurdism

Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008
Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41

Posted 05/12/08 - 01:32 PM:	#19
oneangryzeus wrote: Individual: you have changed my ideas on absurdism and I thank you but I still hold the idea that the human craves unity but you have definitley expanded the idea To clarify: People don't just crave unity, but crave a huge variety of things. Some people want unity, while others don't. For instance, those who commit suicide crave non-existence. Also, there are some hermits who would prefer to withdraw from the world entirely but not in a suicidal kind of way. Maybe "unity" in the sense of expression of Buddha-nature or the unification with Brahman is the most fundamental craving, though?

The Escapist
Supreme Being (retired)

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 92

Posted 05/13/08 - 05:51 AM:	#20
Individual wrote: Your desires appear to be limited only because your means are limited. A simple thought-experiment: What if you had everything you want right now? I do have everything I want. My means aren't terribly limited, and I have the capacity to earn a great deal more than I do already, but I don't want to. {quote] Buddhism does claim that life is inherently unsatisfactory, but it does not require people to believe this if it isn't true for them. If your life is good, then yes, ignore Buddhism, but don't cause harm to others and be honest with yourself. [/quote] I hope other readers will see what garbage this is. If something like that is true (life is inherently unsatisfactory), then there really can't be exceptions. How would you know what honesty is? When you can't even be honest about your First so-called Noble so-called Truth! For an accomplished Buddhist, they would not see a dying child as anything more than it is. They would not place values on it like "unfortunate," or "justified," because pity is a negative, masochistic emotion which doesn't accomplish anything. So who wants to be a person who thinks it is not unfortunate if their child dies? Do you want to be like that person? I don't, and I hope other readers will feel the same.
_____________________ Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

You don't have permission to post.

Please login or register.