Philosophy Forums
Forums Articles Gallery Links


Register Login Members Calendar New Posts Search Chat Help
Philosophy Forums » General Philosophy » Absurdism » Absurdism

Absurdism

PrintPrint


Page: 1 2 3

Absurdism
The Escapist
banned

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 502
Posted 05/10/08 - 12:53 PM:
quote post
#11
Landlady wrote:

I think structure definitely exists in nature (hierarchy in animal life, as well as symmetry in crystal formations, for example), it just doesn’t have an apparent meaning or purpose.


Do you mean you can't see the purpose of a bird's wing?
98765
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 10, 2008

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 18
Posted 05/10/08 - 01:09 PM:
quote post
#12
one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions


I think that the one big restriction on the way we live our lives is the need to be happy. So I believe that abstracting and thinking about the absurdity of life can only go so far.

For example, imagine being constantly being ridiculed by other people because of some odd feature of your appearence. Of course, you could reason that since we are liviing in this vast and strange universe, what you look like really doesnt matter that much. And you could use this thought to feel better about your situation to some extent. But at the end of the day we all have a basic human need to be liked and admired by other people, and I believe no amount of intellectualising can allow you to escape from this fact.
Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41
Posted 05/11/08 - 08:16 AM:
quote post
#13
oneangryzeus wrote:
I would love to open a discussion about absurdism. The basic idea is that the human being craves unity but the world is "indifferent" (aka the world isn't structured but is chaotic) to our desires. Therefore, life is meaningless but, rather than fall into deep despair, one should realize the absurdity of life and thus consider themselves free from restrictions (i.e. social restrictions, NOT moral restrictions which may cause a problem but one should realize that others are in the same situation as you, so you shouldn't harm them in anyway although this argument is a little flimsy).

In my own personal philosophy, I try to infuse this philosophical idea with the idea of laughter. The idea of freedom should bring you happiness above all else. I thus try to laugh at life and the absurdity of it.

Please discuss. Any thoughts or problems with the ideas? Own personal takes on the ideas? Anything?

Absurdism seems to be largely consistent with Absurdism, but I would change the description: The human being craves, period -- not unity, but everything. Human desires are without end, but the world is indifferent to these desires. Rather than falling into despair, you let these desires go and recognize the inherent emptiness of the world, thus (paradoxically) being totally free and perfectly happy.
The Escapist
banned

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 502
Posted 05/11/08 - 10:15 AM:
quote post
#14
Individual wrote:

Absurdism seems to be largely consistent with Absurdism,



Phew


but I would change the description: The human being craves, period -- not unity, but everything. Human desires are without end, but the world is indifferent to these desires. Rather than falling into despair, you let these desires go and recognize the inherent emptiness of the world, thus (paradoxically) being totally free and perfectly happy.


No, the world isn't indifferent to our desires, in the figurative sense that the world can have an attitude like "indifference". The world, figuratively speaking, understands our desires and attempts to satisfy them.

Human desires are not without end. I am a human, I don't think I'm at all extraordinary, and my desires are fairly limited, and I have never found them terribly difficult to satisfy. There's no reason to despair at ordinary life, it can be wonderful. Your Buddhism has to say there is something unsatisfactory in ordinary life to justify its existence. It then offers an imaginary solution. It's a religion, not just a philosophy, an inherently dismal, pleasure-denying, penitential religion.

I'm happy enough now, without letting go of my desires. I don't believe you can really deliver on your promise of "perfect happiness" and "total freedom" in return for me giving up desires. Life involves both happiness and unhappiness. Would you expect an accomplished Buddhist to be "perfectly happy" at the death of a child? Would that be a good thing?






Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41
Posted 05/11/08 - 01:04 PM:
quote post
#15
The Escapist wrote:


Phew

Typo: I meant to say Buddhism! Absurdism is largely consistent with Buddhism!

The Escapist wrote:
No, the world isn't indifferent to our desires, in the figurative sense that the world can have an attitude like "indifference". The world, figuratively speaking, understands our desires and attempts to satisfy them.

If the world, figuratively speaking, understood our desires and attempted to satisfy them, there would be no labor, poverty, or suffering. The world is indifferent, so some of us are lucky while others are unfortunate. All of us -- whether fortunate or not -- have to work to protect what we were given and what we have earned, and nothing we can do can keep it perfectly safe.

The Escapist wrote:

Human desires are not without end. I am a human, I don't think I'm at all extraordinary, and my desires are fairly limited, and I have never found them terribly difficult to satisfy. There's no reason to despair at ordinary life, it can be wonderful.

The idea that "human desires are limitless," is a basic principle of economics -- not just Keynesian economics, but the classical economics of classical liberals and the Austrian school too. Your desires appear to be limited only because your means are limited. A simple thought-experiment: What if you had everything you want right now? It has to be something tangible and imaginable. The abstract idea, "Everything I want," like, "Perfect happiness," is just an abstraction. Things like magic or time travel are also fantasies. Instead, imagine a realistic situation: Imagine, for instance, winning the lottery or, through intelligent business investment, becoming the richest man in the world. It still leaves you with something lacking. There is always something more to be had. Things we don't yet have allure us and once we have them, eventually they are boring. So, we buy clothes, movies, cars, and so on, but eventually we need new ones. There also isn't any correlation between wealth and happiness, other than the fact that people who have a basic subsistence are a bit more happy than those who are starving to death, dying of disease, and so on. There isn't any meaningful difference between the happiness of those who are lower middle-class and those who are upper-class.

The Escapist wrote:

Your Buddhism has to say there is something unsatisfactory in ordinary life to justify its existence. It then offers an imaginary solution. It's a religion, not just a philosophy, an inherently dismal, pleasure-denying, penitential religion.

I'm happy enough now, without letting go of my desires. I don't believe you can really deliver on your promise of "perfect happiness" and "total freedom" in return for me giving up desires. Life involves both happiness and unhappiness. Would you expect an accomplished Buddhist to be "perfectly happy" at the death of a child? Would that be a good thing?

Buddhism does claim that life is inherently unsatisfactory, but it does not require people to believe this if it isn't true for them. If your life is good, then yes, ignore Buddhism, but don't cause harm to others and be honest with yourself.

It does not deny pleasure, but sees the psychological benefit in renouncing it but not to the point of personal misery, as in Jainism. Physical pleasure is psychologically addicting and this, along with selfishness, tends to be the root of all suffering. Every unethical act anyone ever does is rooted in the selfish pursuit of pleasure.

The notion of perfect joy is defined by:
  • Friendliness (Metta)
  • Compassion (Karuna)
  • Sympathetic joy (Mudita)
  • Equanimity (Upekkha)


These feelings are perfect forms of joy because they are always available and don't require any particular physical forms. Other forms of pleasure require some kind of physical form -- sex, drugs, and so on -- but you can be friendly with anyone, compassionate to anyone, if you delight in others' joy you are incredibly happy, and if you are equanimous, there is nothing which seems more or less joyous than anything else.

For an accomplished Buddhist, they would not see a dying child as anything more than it is. They would not place values on it like "unfortunate," or "justified," because pity is a negative, masochistic emotion which doesn't accomplish anything.
Landlady
curious skeptic
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 09, 2007
Location: USA

Total Topics: 22
Total Posts: 584
1 of 1 people found this post helpful
Posted 05/11/08 - 07:13 PM:
quote post
#16
Landlady wrote:
I think structure definitely exists in nature (hierarchy in animal life, as well as symmetry in crystal formations, for example), it just doesn’t have an apparent meaning or purpose.

The Escapist wrote:
Do you mean you can't see the purpose of a bird's wing?

Your view is too shortsighted here. I can see what a function of individual biological forms (organs) is, but there no apparent purpose behind their existence—their existence (their emergence into existence) is accidental. All life forms possess forms that enable them to stay in existence, but the process that leads to creation of these forms (evolution) does not have an apparent purpose. Within a greater scheme of things, a bird’s wing does not have a purpose, in the same way that our planet or our solar system does not have a purpose. What is the purpose of a wheel within a machine that does not have an apparent purpose? Life will not exist forever. So, what, then, is the purpose of the existence of life (and the multitude of forms, like a wing, or a beak, within it)?
What is the purpose behind a wing? What is the purpose of flying? What is the purpose of evading predators, feeding, surviving, and procreating? What is THE purpose that encompasses all life forms, including an existence of a form of a bird’s wing? There is no underlying purpose.
There is time to laugh and there is time not to laugh, and this is not one of them. - Insp. Clouseau.
Each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible. - Frankl.
oneangryzeus
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 10, 2007

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 6
Posted 05/12/08 - 07:31 AM:
quote post
#17
Escapist: you believe that everything can be explained through language?

how does a human not crave unity? we constantly live structured days, we constantly plan, and we're always looking for something to explain events in which we know nothing (there's a psychology experiment about pigeons which proves this as well as your everyday life: superstition, etc.)

Rational Animal: i understand the principle but im going to consider it an excuse to not answer the question. all philosphy aims toward an explanation to life (through morality, ways to live life, etc.) and to use such logic does make sense but its irrelevant in the real-world for everyone craves for a meaning

Individual: you have changed my ideas on absurdism and I thank you but I still hold the idea that the human craves unity but you have definitley expanded the idea
98765
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: May 10, 2008

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 18
Posted 05/12/08 - 07:49 AM:
quote post
#18
oneangryzeus (or anyone else), can you come up with an example?

i.e an example of a restriction you can free yourself from by absurdism
Individual
Existentialist Buddhist

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 25, 2008

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 41
Posted 05/12/08 - 12:32 PM:
quote post
#19
oneangryzeus wrote:
Individual: you have changed my ideas on absurdism and I thank you but I still hold the idea that the human craves unity but you have definitley expanded the idea

To clarify: People don't just crave unity, but crave a huge variety of things. Some people want unity, while others don't. For instance, those who commit suicide crave non-existence. Also, there are some hermits who would prefer to withdraw from the world entirely but not in a suicidal kind of way.

Maybe "unity" in the sense of expression of Buddha-nature or the unification with Brahman is the most fundamental craving, though?
The Escapist
banned

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 26, 2008

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 502
Posted 05/13/08 - 04:51 AM:
quote post
#20
Individual wrote:

Your desires appear to be limited only because your means are limited. A simple thought-experiment: What if you had everything you want right now?



I do have everything I want. My means aren't terribly limited, and I have the capacity to earn a great deal more than I do already, but I don't want to.

{quote]
Buddhism does claim that life is inherently unsatisfactory, but it does not require people to believe this if it isn't true for them. If your life is good, then yes, ignore Buddhism, but don't cause harm to others and be honest with yourself.
[/quote]

I hope other readers will see what garbage this is.

If something like that is true (life is inherently unsatisfactory), then there really can't be exceptions.

How would you know what honesty is? When you can't even be honest about your First so-called Noble so-called Truth!


For an accomplished Buddhist, they would not see a dying child as anything more than it is. They would not place values on it like "unfortunate," or "justified," because pity is a negative, masochistic emotion which doesn't accomplish anything.


So who wants to be a person who thinks it is not unfortunate if their child dies? Do you want to be like that person? I don't, and I hope other readers will feel the same.
Download thread as

Page: 1 2 3



Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.

Powered by WSN Forum

The time is now 11/20/09 - 08:31 PM.