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A dialogue on Obediance and Law
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A dialogue on Obediance and Law
Cadrache
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Posted 10/21/09 - 03:19 PM:
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#21
Both are wrong.

1) You say one should not smoke. And then one should smoke occasionally.


Don't cross-link two seperate statements.

"One should not smoke all the time."

"I don't mind people smoking occassionally."


What I more advocate is that of order vs. chaos to the body. The natural harmonics of a ny set being obviously has coping mechanisms that means you can occassionally do 'too much good' or 'too much bad' to your system.

Complete order will degrade the system just as much as going to either extreme. The way in which it breaks is only differed at a later date with the order styling.

If you take the scale analagy: Some items that you consume rest upon the scale and then tip your equilibrium. Other items move the lever so that you can no longer stay truly balanced.


Number 2.

How many articles have you read concerning dopamine? Out of the 7 or 8 I have read only one has even inclined to state how dopamine stops the production of other chemicals.

That estimates that close to 80% of all scientific-like articles only concern themselves with the emotional response. Pretty sad isn't it?

As an additional note: The last 3 articles I have read were from scientific American, Seed and Newscientist. Unfortunately they don't supply them anymore locally - so that info is at least 8 mths. out of date.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
ben_tam64
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Posted 10/21/09 - 05:05 PM:
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#22
1) I still do not see reason in your arguement. First you tell people it's bad to smoke because it alters your perception and leads to dependance. And then you say it's okay to smoke occasionally? That is a contradiction no matter how you look at it. Even if you never said "People should not smoke", the premisis you use are loaded with it. Such is a logical fallacy.

2) Please do not presume to think that profit based science magazines can be a replacement for truth based scientific journals. As a student in psycology at the University of British Columbia, I base my knowledge on my studies, which are based on peer reviewed journals, which in turn are based on the scientific model, which is the bomb.

And what about my premise number (3)? You didn't think you could just ignore it and it would go away did you?
What is your response to that?


My position still stands
Cadrache
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Posted 10/21/09 - 07:01 PM:
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#23
Nope. I claim it is bad to become dependent on smoking. If you have to have a smoke before work - you are dependent. If you have to have a smoke to relax - you are dependent. Your scale always becomes bent. As such - your whole body doesn't run correctly. Sure - you may be able to produce as much work as another person under the influence of an increased dopamine level.

2) Mmmm.. and you pay them thousands instead of a mere 100$ for knowledge? And you wish to claim non-profit? Go ahead. And yes - you are entitled for a little bit of extra data when you go to university to study.


Mmmm? number 3? Maybe later.

How about trying to address the actual function dopamine plays in reducing other endocrine chemicals after you do something?



Now... I probably should have chosen a slightly different tact concerning stabbing. Not an attack against you. A mere suggestion about how people use mind altering drugs to change the actual perceptions of an individual such that the individual no longer is. It's called conditioning.

The lovely Mary Jane is somehwat weak in this area because it only suppliments physical action in only 2 areas.



But did you ever think to realize that even if you were allowed to smoke weed in public - you would be in violation of distribution drug rights? You smoke weed around me and I am legally within my rights to kill you in self defense. Administration of drugs without permission is an entirely different set of problems.


And you can't even go for the "it's not a drug" clause any more since so many people have ran a 'medicinal Mary Jane' argument.


Not that I would place charges. I don't often care if somebody else is toking. Once you get past the minimal amount of THC that is detrimental for your health - then I'm a slightly less gruntled individual. Did you know that? Very small amounts of THC consumption is actually documented as being bad for your health.



"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Cadrache
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Posted 10/21/09 - 07:29 PM:
quote post
#24
#3

and worked the most adventerous jobs(From prospecting to telemarketing)


You'll have to do better then that. Admittedly I was panning for Gold more then prospecting. You probably also have dibs on the longer length of time too!

You plant any trees? Any data entry? Print paper products? Do inventory? Deliver newspapers by chance? Compete nationally in a sport or two?

I stated that M.J. is more unique as a drug because after consumption - the majority of things you do within society is still within your grasp. It truly doesn't take much for panning for Gold.



The only 2 observable societal differences that could be considered short term results from smoking pot are these:

1. Insistence that everything you do is of reward value.

2. Insistence that I should have the same sense of reward as you do. For merely doing my job - I should feel like I achieved greatness.


However there is 1 or 2 specific outcomes to smoking pot that are negative-physiological aspects. Take the guy I work with for instance. He got me my current job and we rent an apartment with another guy. They both smoke pot regularly.

Today - I expect my friends' work productivity to decline almost 40% not because he may or may not have had a joint before work but rather the dopamine 'reward' system is negated completely today.


Oh, and as a side note: I am not an activist of any sort. I had the luxury of being born with a propensity to alcoholism. I still drink. I'll however not drink if when I think "I want a beer." when what I really mean is "I need a beer."

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
ben_tam64
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Posted 10/21/09 - 08:09 PM:
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#25
What are you trying to prove?

I do not care to compare your life with mine, I am content and do not feel the need. Besides, yours does not sound appealing to me anyways.

I used my life as an example to disprove your claim that stoners dont do anything. But we do.

What is so complicated about that?



Smoking anything is not good for you body, that's why you cough. Even my dog knows this.

But that doesn't mean I should be punished for choosing to smoke. I own my body. No one else.



If you would rather resort to the use of force, under the fasade of a government's laws, to push your opinion on others, then you do not care for practical reason. The use of violence agaisnt non violent offenders is unjust no matter how you try to justify it.

The last refuge of the ignorant is violence.



I smoke when I please, and not when I don't. And I enjoy myself.

Furthermore, there is no evidance of physical dependance caused by marijuana, unlike heroin or meth. Coffee is more addicting then pot.


Bunching together different and seperate things, and calling them "drugs" does not mean they are the same.
But this is what they have taught you since the years of your infancy.
Drugs are bad, drugs are evil.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why?



You say okay, I'll drink alcohol, which causes countless deaths a year, but that's okay, cause it's legal.
Then you damn marijuana, which has not a single recorded case as cause of death.
When will you stop letting the state's laws define what you are or what you value?

Honestly, what is more dangerous: A dope smoking hippie, or alcholic parent? A mellow stoner, or a rowdy drunk?

You feel the need to drink, and cannot control yourself. Then don't talk like you can. Don't blame it on your genetic disposition either.

Assume the responsibility over your own life,

It is yours for the shaping.


I would never ask you to live in a certain way, nor do I care to live by the morality of another.
.
The point I am trying to make is that only I can know what is best for myself, as only you can know what you truly want.

Is that really so hard to believe?
Cadrache
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Posted 10/21/09 - 08:43 PM:
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#26
See? Your indpendent reward trumps the mere want of being able to toke anywheres. You argue for equal rights for everybody IF you personally are allowed to have your mind altered so that you feel rewarded.

Not at all. But I would suggest stop alternating between want and need.

Arguing I want this - therefore it is a need is not always the case.


And again - you insist that I am using force to stop you from doing something. The only time I would actually use force is if you insist on giving me drugs through inhalation against my will.

AGAIN AND AGAIN. You claim YOUR OWN PERSONAL REWARD IS GREATER THEN HAVING EQUAL RIGHTS. Your right to have a reward for mere existence is greater then my right to exist without being chemically altered.

Equal rights isn't a Me! Me! scenerio. It is a set of rules that gives the most freedom for different individuals. Your individual right to do something that you want to do to yourself is only countered through equal rights when somebody else individual right to not be chemically altered is affected.

Me denying you being able to toke when I am not there? That has nothing at all to do with equal rights. That is a different set of morals and ethics. To begin with... I'm not there. Therefore - equal rights is non-existent.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
ben_tam64
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Posted 10/22/09 - 12:13 AM:
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#27
You have assumed false again.

I have never spoken a word about rights, and your argument is based on the assumption that I am. But I won't, cause rights don't exist. When your rights are laced with coercion, it's slavery with a smile.


There is only raw choice and power.



I am getting tired of picking your arguments apart. Please think about your next response more deeply.

If you fail to adapt and present logical fallacies and contradiction again, then I shall not share my opinion with you anymore.
psychotick
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Posted 10/22/09 - 05:30 AM:
quote post
#28
Hi,

Ben_Tam64, I was not being condescending as your response to my last post suggestes you thought I was. I was simply responding to your OP which seemed to suggest that what you were doing was harmless and thus should be permitted. Clearly its not harmless.

Comparing weed to alcohol may make some sense as you say, and it may be your contention that alcohol is a more hrmful drug. I won't disagree with that, we have major problems with alcohol in society. But the same issues apply to both. Whether you're wasted on alcohol or stoned I do not want you driving on the road. I do not think its appropriate to drink or smoke dope in public in a setting where impressionable children may see you and think its "cool" or acceptable. And whether you like it or not you signed a social contract with your state by being born into it. I'm not really sure you can opt out except by emigrating. Thus if your contract says you will receive medical care at the states expense then you will, which means that taxpayers and other users of medical resources will be forced to pay for your costs regardless of your wants.

Personally I don't think drug and alcohol usage should generally be treated as criminal acts, unless there is some overriding public safety issue like drink driving. They are medical problems and should be treated as such.

Cheers.
ben_tam64
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Posted 10/22/09 - 07:31 AM:
quote post
#29
What contract?
I don't remember signing.

A legitimate contract requires mutual consent from both parties.

But I do not consent to thier terms. And yet I have to pay taxes, go to jail, or get kick out the the land?

I do not enter contracts where there is a one sided relationship.


Smoke and drinking may be harmful, but people have the responsibility to decide for themselves. Unless of course thier irresponsible decisions are a threat to the safety of others as you say. If you mess with people by being an destructive idiot(No matter what your frame of mind), it's only natural that people will mess with you.
Thanks for clearing things up
Cadrache
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Posted 10/22/09 - 02:59 PM:
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#30
"I am a human. And claiming that right, I do what I want"

You wrote that.

I would also really look at what I write. I never once claimed I drink because it is legal.

I haven't even once claimed anything about legalities.

I have however questioned how thorough studies are when it deals with the actual functions of the body itself. Not merely the function of creating dopamine.

1. Dopamine does not cause a large proponent of damage to the human machine.

I agree completely when it comes to short term temporary usage.

THC isn't dopamine. That means that you are telling your body to produce chemicals that are different then what your body naturally runs at.



Smoking everyday? That is not addiction? Aye. It's apparently easy to stop. Even a few documentary's have proven it. But stopping does not constitute not being addicted. The most telling part of these documentarys is when the subject states "I still think of smoking pot every day." And yes.. I have talked with people who has smoked for 20-30 years and then stopped. They still say the same thing. Even with the same "Hell ya!" inflection to their 'yes'.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

Take a look at the functions of the Brain section:

It has been hypothesized that dopamine transmits reward prediction error, although this has been questioned.[4] According to this hypothesis, the phasic responses of dopamine neurons are observed when an unexpected reward is presented. These responses transfer to the onset of a conditioned stimulus after repeated pairings with the reward. Further, dopamine neurons are depressed when the expected reward is omitted. Thus, dopamine neurons seem to encode the prediction error of rewarding outcomes. In nature, we learn to repeat behaviors that lead to maximize rewards. Dopamine is therefore believed to provide a teaching signal to parts of the brain responsible for acquiring new behavior. Temporal difference learning provides a computational model describing how the prediction error of dopamine neurons is used as a teaching signal.




Abnormally high dopamine action has also been strongly linked to psychosis and schizophrenia,[43] Dopamine neurons in the mesolimbic pathway are particularly associated with these conditions. Evidence comes partly from the discovery of a class of drugs called the phenothiazines (which block D2 dopamine receptors) that can reduce psychotic symptoms, and partly from the finding that drugs such as amphetamine and cocaine (which are known to greatly increase dopamine levels) can cause psychosis.[44] Because of this, most modern antipsychotic medications, for example, risperidone, are designed to block dopamine function to varying degrees.
[edit]


Hmm. Even my information is a bit out of date.


The key to smoking pot in concerns of negative effects is entirely different then simply physically adding the chemical. Body production is limited therefore hitting the short term degration limit is often not possible for any drug. Normally a drug in this case only activates production from pre-existing pattern sets found within the body. If you introduce a different specific drug into the body in addition to THC - you however have a possibility of creating the overdrive effect to natural production. At that point - your body would be producing more dopamine then you can handle on the short term.


Once all the THC receptors have been activated - this normally doesn't cause an immediate dopamine overdose. THis implies then that if there are negative effects on the endocrin system - they are long term effects. In other words; the endocrin system would devolve into in-operability prior to your other systems. (well, at least in part.) And yes. This is only a guess as to where the trouble would lie.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
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