Please note: because you're not logged in, you may be viewing older cached versions of pages which are served up to reduce server load.
The Universal Edge : Topology & Metaphysics
PrintPage: 1 2
 The Universal Edge : Topology & Metaphysics | |
|
Usergroup: Guests Joined: Total Topics: Total Posts: |
 #1
There is a thought many of us have when we are younger; a thought that fills our mind right before we go to sleep. What is the edge? How far does it go? What is on the other side? We try to imagine the "Wall of the Universe." Where is the wall? What is on the otherside of the wall? We give ourselves a boundry to deal with. We treat the universe like we treat a cup. A cup can hold water because it has a surface to hold it in, but water does not require itself to be held in a cup in order to call itself water. The universe is not the cup. The universe is the water; it exists anywhere and has no boundry unless it is given one, but this boundry can be taken away as easily as it is given. Edited by Mike Kulov on Aug 6, 2007 - 11:31 PM |
|
RONIN
Student Usergroup: Members Joined: Dec 18, 2003 Location: Colorado Total Topics: 3 Total Posts: 51 |
#2
Mike Kulov wrote: We know the light is the universe, but who is the darkness? Who or what has given up its existence for us; who or what has become completely non-existent? Is the answer God? Im not sure I follow you. First of all not all of us live with set boundries. I see the Universe as open ended with so significan begining nor end, I do not try to imagine a "border" of an infinate Universe as it would serve no purpose. "who is darkness" that just makes no sense. "who or what has become completely non-existent?" if it does not exist why should we care? "Is the answer God?" try the religous threads, plus if you suggest that God exists, you cannot give God attributes. Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant! |
|
gardener
Student Usergroup: Members Joined: Mar 26, 2004 Total Topics: 8 Total Posts: 56 |
#3
We know the light is the universe, but who is the darkness? Who or what has given up its existence for us; who or what has become completely non-existent? Is the answer God? cool thread - it's a good idea. but why can't light (existence) and darkness (non-existence) coexist? why does there HAVE to be a line between existence and non-existence? i think that it's PART of existence. there could just be different LEVELS of existence. it has to be possible. i'm not quite sure that something gave up its existence for us because then we would not exist either - it's all about connectedness, i think. go ahead and flame me now. |
|
Gramm
Olde Worlde Skeptic  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Nov 28, 2003 Location: Seeking the seven poles of Being Total Topics: 252 Total Posts: 4914 |
#4
I think your attempting some rudimentary Metaphysics..so shifting accordingly... Other mods can shift it, if they feel it doesn't live up to expectations.. Gramm Light is not diminished by being shared. Desiderata |
|
Tobias
Metaphysical exorcist  Usergroup: Moderators Joined: Feb 17, 2003 Location: Just rub the mirror Total Topics: 62 Total Posts: 6068 |
#5
In philosophy it has numerous names. It is called 'nihilistic void', sometimes also nothingness. On the forums though, you will have a hard time. People here generally don't like this sort of thing. I is a valid metaphysical topic though in continental philosophy. I am writing a PhD thesis on it. On your light/darkness example, I agree that light is something completely different from darkness, but at the edges they touch eachother. In pitch blackness you cannot see a thing but in pure light also not. Therefore darkness includes some light and light darkness for us in order to see. This also goes for nothingness and being in my view. If you would like it totally seprated I thinkj Heidegger is something for you. He said 'das Nichts nichtet' or 'nothingness noths'. Highlighting the paralysing, negating fear that nothingness invokes. I like a mote mixed approach to these boundaries. A boundarie is a boundary, so you know you can't cross. At the same time you want to cross and are scared to cross. There is always a mix of emotions when it comes to willing, and a mix of considerations when it comes to knowing. good luck, Tobi "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" |
|
180 Proof
kynic  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Apr 27, 2003 Location: reason's raggedy edge ... Total Topics: 108 Total Posts: 5931 |
#6
Mike Kulov wrote: does the earth have an edge? how do you define the edge of sphere? to my way of thinking, mike, the universe is a surface that's expanding like a balloon. unlike a balloon, however, it's not expanding into anything else since it is all there is. (perhaps the universe is expanding into itself sort of like a moebius loop? What is the edge? How far does it go? What is on the other side? We try to imagine the "Wall of the Universe." Where is the wall? What is on the otherside of the wall?  )physics might not be able to answer definitively and metaphysical speculations, being legion, are wholly undecideable except as matters of aesthetics or superstition. the universe is more like an expanding cup that's (mostly) empty; it is emptiness (dao) that fulfills the cup. even an empty cup has no edge ...tobi: i think 'nothingness' is a pseudo-concept like the mathematical limit. however, negation / subtraction seems to me a more useful operation (e.g. dialectics, via negativa, etc). not X rather than (context-free, unconditional, ineffable) 'not'! the latter just chases its own tail! 
the where of space? the when of time? the edge of an unbounded surface? the cause of causality? willing separate from acting? disembodied personality? symphony without orchestra? ideal reality? real concepts? 'higher truth' via contradiction? non-propositional truths? context-free questions? unconditional objects? maps which transcend their terrain? the truth of logic? facts indistinguishable from fictions? answering questions with mysteries? anthropomorphic unknowns? ... o_O only placebos require 'faith'. THINKING won't kill you, but it might make you stronger! |
|
darkcrow
Tenured Poster  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Feb 08, 2003 Location: San Diego Total Topics: 97 Total Posts: 4256 |
#7
Mike Kulov wrote: Light requires darkness. Without darkness, light would not be able to exercise its function, illumination. Or is it light that is always there, and just sometimes deflected, creating the illusion of darkness? "To the success of our hopeless task." |
|
Tobias
Metaphysical exorcist Usergroup: Moderators Joined: Feb 17, 2003 Location: Just rub the mirror Total Topics: 62 Total Posts: 6068 |
#8
i think 'nothingness' is a pseudo-concept like the mathematical limit. however, negation / subtraction seems to me a more useful operation (e.g. dialectics, via negativa, etc). not X rather than (context-free, unconditional, ineffable) 'not'! the latter just chases its own tail! I think you are basically right 180. In any case absolute nothingness 'the indeterminable in itself' is the mother of all contradictions. Yet in metaphysics nothingness has always done its job, that is the disruption of any kind of philosophy totalizing 'being'. It has done that since Parmenides. Nothingness is a symbol and in for instance Heidegger it symbolizes the fear or limit, Mike Kulov was talking about. It also symbolizes the limit to what extent 'being' 'is'. That for me is the value of Hegel's demonstartion. It allowed Hegel to turn dialectics on itself (therefore it needs a contexr and achieve a dynamic philosophy of struggle in which I see a clear parallel with Nietzsche, who in his turn inverted it and shifted the focus to 'will', but we talked about this already. In any case metaphysical speculation supports your idea of a Moebius loop. Metaphysics inevitably it seems turns against itself. For me metaphysical terms like nothingness, being, synthesis, immediate, absolute etc. don't mean anything per se, they are all 'thought things' which have no place in reality. They 'gesture' towards reality and show more concrete map makers and surveyors some foggy images from high above the terrain. The more higher up, the more meaningless these gestures become in terms of practical reality, but the more synoptic the overview is. Metaphysics might be superstition, but it is a world forming superstition. Man wants to make sense of his world out of a sense of wonder of living in it. That is what I took Mike's post to be. I am an idealist because I think metaphysics can make sense of some important part of the world, namely ones own sense of wonder of it. It can show the proces in which the particular (human) makes sense of the world and the world as universal (collectivity of humans) makes sense of itself. regards Tobi "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" |
|
180 Proof
kynic Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Apr 27, 2003 Location: reason's raggedy edge ... Total Topics: 108 Total Posts: 5931 |
#9
Tobias wrote: Metaphysics might be superstition, but it is a world forming superstition. Man wants to make sense of his world out of a sense of wonder of living in it. That is what I took Mike's post to be. I am an idealist because I think metaphysics can make sense of some important part of the world, namely ones own sense of wonder of it. yeah, but why fill the gaps with fairytales or consoling abstractions? why not leave the gaps alone, and give our angst a chance to return again to (naive) wonder at them? i guess this comes down to personal preference ... but i'd rather my wonder solicited than to wonder via fetish / word-superstition (pace mauthner). 
the where of space? the when of time? the edge of an unbounded surface? the cause of causality? willing separate from acting? disembodied personality? symphony without orchestra? ideal reality? real concepts? 'higher truth' via contradiction? non-propositional truths? context-free questions? unconditional objects? maps which transcend their terrain? the truth of logic? facts indistinguishable from fictions? answering questions with mysteries? anthropomorphic unknowns? ... o_O only placebos require 'faith'. THINKING won't kill you, but it might make you stronger! |
|
Tobias
Metaphysical exorcist Usergroup: Moderators Joined: Feb 17, 2003 Location: Just rub the mirror Total Topics: 62 Total Posts: 6068 |
#10
I think we all fill the blanks in some way or other. In my idea metaphysics should be a critical discipline. Metaphysics turns into itself exactly because it dispells all fairytales it creates, teachinng us how 'You' and 'I' weave the web of the world. Knowledge of how we do that, how we draw our maps is what metaphysics has to offer, the infamous 'self consciousness'. regards tobi (Ps may the toothfairy guide us all  )
"The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" |
Page: 1 2
Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.