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Is science good for anything other than technological advance?
Can science be a way of understanding our universe?

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Is science good for anything other than technological advance?
ciceronianus
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Posted 11/05/09 - 02:01 PM:
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#31
exel+two wrote:


Science falls apart (as a means of explaining this "reality") in the sense that it puts all of its stock in proofs. The simple point that science misses is that proof needs proof. To turn science, even partially into a usable philosophy, you have to start making assumptions about what constitutes "fact", and as soon as you start making assumptions and basing your thinking on belief and assumption, you no longer have pure, undisputed, fact. Instead, you now have a belief, no different than any religion.



Are you seriously claiming that science is no different than religion? I suspect not. But, If not, we must consider just what it is you are saying.

If you don't maintain that science is no different than religion, you must make a distinction between the two. It is that distinction that is significant, obviously. The distinction is that which makes it clear how science differs from religion.

In the real world, proof is in consequences. Once we have proved that X, what need is there to prove we have proved that X? Seems a bit silly, does it not?[/quote]

"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey
exel+two
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Posted 11/05/09 - 02:16 PM:
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#32
To Mega Therion wrote:

What I meant by 'interacting with our environment' was a bit broader than simply technological progress, though this is of course an important part. The point was that scientific theories help us make sense of our experience, predict what will happen in certain situations and so on. Well, that's a minor issue. What I would like to know is what you mean by the 'nature of the universe'? I ask this because these kind of questions usually turn out to be pseudoquestions.

And I would like to know what you mean by 'certain'? If you mean some sort of absolutely established, infalible knowledge such a thing doesn't exist, so I agree with you to that extent. But science is a method of arriving at plausible theories; and since these are all that we have I would say that science retains its epistemically privileged status.

And as for evidentialism, I guess it would depend on what you treat by evidence. I would say that the fact that a certain theory fulfils certain desiderata (accordance with our experience, predictive power, parsimony, yada yada yada) is evidence for that theory. I don't think I need to prove the methodology as well; it's obvious it works.

Look, you have some good points against dogmatists, foundationalists and so on, but you need to stop frothing at the mouth.


Sorry bout the frothing bit. Capitals seem like the only way to emphasize because I can't seem to figure out how to do italics and I've been kind of deprived of interesting discussion of late so I may be a tad "eager", as it were.

Okay, I see what you are saying and my language wasn't very clear (and probably not correct) in relation to "technological progress"; "successful interaction with our environment"'s definition is obviously subjective as to how we define "success". I was saying that more advanced technologies allow us to "improve" (by my definition, at least) our interactions with our environment.

I totally agree with you on questions about "the nature of the universe". The thing is, though, that some people think that these questions (which often are pseudoquestions) can (and will) be answered, definitively, by the scientific method.

I also totally agree that science does deal with theories and beliefs; the point I am making is that although science cannot definitively "prove" anything (nothing can), there are many humans who think it can.

When I referred to evidentialism, I was referring to it in its purest sense: that beliefs need proof to be justified. But then there's the infinite regress argument; which I am not sure of your position on but I believe it is a justified argument and I cannot think of a way to avoid it without turning to one of the counter-arguments (and I am interested to know which one you chose).
To Mega Therion
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Posted 11/05/09 - 02:33 PM:
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#33
Well, the frothing comment was really about how you mentioned how pissed at certain people you are a few times. Never mind, though; it's not important.

As for the people who hold that science proves anything in the dogmatic sense, I wouldn't know. Most people I know are students of natural sciences or mathematics, and (with the exception of a few delusional mathematicians) if they bother with philosophical questions they usually stick to a kind of Academic scepticism/probabilism that I agree with.

As for evidentialism, I guess I would take the circular option. We justify scientific theories by appealing to the scientific method; we justify our conception of a scientific method by appealing to actually existing theories and processes in science. It might not satisfy someone who wants us to deduce everything from first principles, but hey, it works and it's the best we have.
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Posted 11/05/09 - 02:38 PM:
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#34
ciceronianus wrote:


Are you seriously claiming that science is no different than religion? I suspect not. But, If not, we must consider just what it is you are saying.

If you don't maintain that science is no different than religion, you must make a distinction between the two. It is that distinction that is significant, obviously. The distinction is that which makes it clear how science differs from religion.

In the real world, proof is in consequences. Once we have proved that X, what need is there to prove we have proved that X? Seems a bit silly, does it not?
[/quote]

Evidentialism is a belief regarding how this universe works. Christianity is a belief regarding how this universe works. Science is very different than both of these ideas. Science is about making a prediction of what will happen under certain circumstances, based on previous, recorded observations and just plain guessing. Its like comparing elephant seals to bricks. Science is not a religion. I am terribly sorry about my improper wording, that was very stupid of me and I am terribly embarrassed. What I meant was evidetialism, evidentialism leans on and depends on science but they are definitely not one and the same.

Perhaps proving that you proved X is a little silly (its not if you want to convince anyone), but proving how you proved X is very important. How do you know that that which you used to prove X is fact? And how, do you know that that which proved what proved X is fact? The pattern continues. This is the fundamental counter-evidentialism argument.
kkiiji
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Posted 11/05/09 - 03:23 PM:
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#35
To Mega Therion wrote:


I would agree with everything, except the idea that a pragmatic approach tells us nothing about reality. As I see it, a pragmatic approach is the only way in which we can make sense of reality. Scientists routinely say that the objects they study, from brains to quantum fields, are real.



No scientist would claim that is the way things actually are because those are approximative models; strictly incorrect but useful in a limited sense. But I don't see that this would apply to what are, to the best of our knowledge, exact models.


What you claim seems to be a reasonable approach to what science offers, except how do you know what you say is correct? How do you know that scientific models offer approximations of what is actually there? I agree that the pragmatic approach is pretty much all we have, that it is by far the best we got, but to think that it leads us closer to some ultimate truth? I tend to disregard the concept of "what's actually there" completely.

Though to say that science doesn't represent reality is to say that there is a reality out there to be learned(either through some other method or by scientific perfection in the far future), I just don't think this is true at all.

Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says "But Doctor...
I am Pagliacci."

Good joke, everybody laugh.
Roll on snare drum...
Curtains.
To Mega Therion
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Posted 11/05/09 - 03:49 PM:
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#36
I was talking about approximations to exact theories, not the old and tired view of science as a series of approximations to The Actual And Ultimate Truth (TM). So, I agree with you in a way, it makes no sense to talk about reality, truth and whatever except in the context of our theories. I don't doubt the external world, but I highly doubt that pretending to take a God's eye viewpoint of it helps
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Posted 11/05/09 - 04:06 PM:
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#37
Only one thing to add:

The fault may lie in the assumption that the entirety of Society must exist within each and every individual.

"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
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Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
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Posted 11/05/09 - 04:13 PM:
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#38
Is it just me or does that sentence make no sense in context? If you could clarify what you meant a bit...
kkiiji
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Posted 11/05/09 - 04:18 PM:
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#39
Perhaps Cad alludes to some type of hyper-idealism?

Anyways, what is this exact theory you speak of, could you elaborate? Sounds quite interesting. Is it some type of pragmatic perfection? A theory that is so useful that it ties up all the loose ends?

Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says "But Doctor...
I am Pagliacci."

Good joke, everybody laugh.
Roll on snare drum...
Curtains.
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Posted 11/05/09 - 04:26 PM:
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#40
Nope, it's a theory we have no reason to believe is inexact; QFT, for example.
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