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Free Will - A Thought Experiment
a challenge to those who believe in free will

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Free Will - A Thought Experiment

reincarnated
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Posted 11/06/09 - 11:15 PM:	#71
oldandrew wrote: I have a coin in my pocket. When I take it out I can place it on the table heads up or tails up. If I don't have free will, can you tell me which way up I cannot choose to place it? You seem to be confusing free will with unpredictability. Its trivial to show that even a completely deterministic machine can be unpredictable in exactly the sense you have described. Let the machine take a coin out of its “pocket”, can you tell the machine which way up it cannot place it? Even though the machine is completely deterministic, and even though you may know every detail of its program, whatever answer you give the machine can prove you wrong. Your example unfortunately proves nothing about free will. oldandrew wrote: In particular this is the game where you demand people prove their experiences are real, even though everything we can ever know is from experience and we could never live as though we generally disbelieved our experiences. Perhaps we can't explain how we have free will and perhaps our free will is just an illusion. However, nobody can live as if everything they can't explain is an illusion and it is an obvious weakness in a worldview if the people who hold it have to resort to claiming "X is an illusion" while simultaneously living as if they believe in X. Thanks for telling me how I can and cannot live. I don’t believe that I have free will (of the metaphysical libertarian variety), I believe that all of my choices and decisions are determined by antecedent states (unless there are some genuine random factors at play, in which case some of the elements of my decision making may be random, but I do not claim this is any kind of source of free will). And that is exactly how I live my life. In what way do you believe that a person (who believes in free will) would necessarily live their lives any differently if they stopped believing in metaphysical libertarian free will?
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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Posted 11/07/09 - 12:22 AM:	#72
reincarnated wrote: But your description (of how you come to make your choice) is exactly the same as the description of someone who (unbeknownst to them) has a subconscious random number generator which influences their conscious choices, it is literally indistinguishable. Such a person would also say that they don’t mindlessly choose it, they would say that there are also considerations they take before they come with the conclusion, and they would claim that they choose at the very moment they have to choose. Can you give me any reason why I should NOT consider your choices to be random in this sense? Like I said, when someone chooses exactly at the very moment he has to, it then becomes meaningful no more whether he mindlessly or mindfully does that. The only meaningful thing is that he exercises his free will. Because "choosing at the very moment one has to and not after or before" is a very valid definition of "free will." Of course we could always have debates over whether or not that "very moment" is truly possible to experience with a significant degree of exactness. But that's another topic.
"I've always believed that evil is born in a cold heart and a weak mind." - Mike Atkins

reincarnated
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Posted 11/07/09 - 12:59 AM:	#73
Wirya wrote: Like I said, when someone chooses exactly at the very moment he has to, it then becomes meaningful no more whether he mindlessly or mindfully does that. The only meaningful thing is that he exercises his free will. Because "choosing at the very moment one has to and not after or before" is a very valid definition of "free will." Of course we could always have debates over whether or not that "very moment" is truly possible to experience with a significant degree of exactness. But that's another topic. I agree it makes no sense to talk of something being done "mindfully" when the mind seems to have no role to play in the mechanism. I don't see how one can rationally claim a choice or decision to be done "mindfully" when one has no idea of the (mental) mechanism/origin/cause/source of the choice (ie how the choice was arrived at). If a choice does just "pop into your mind out of thin air" at the moment of choice, how is this choice NOT "mindless", and how is it in any way accomplished "mindfully"?
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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Posted 11/07/09 - 01:39 AM:	#74
reincarnated wrote: I agree it makes no sense to talk of something being done "mindfully" when the mind seems to have no role to play in the mechanism. I don't see how one can rationally claim a choice or decision to be done "mindfully" when one has no idea of the (mental) mechanism/origin/cause/source of the choice (ie how the choice was arrived at). If a choice does just "pop into your mind out of thin air" at the moment of choice, how is this choice NOT "mindless", and how is it in any way accomplished "mindfully"? I believe the real issue here is "will" and not "mind." Or it is not? To confuse "will" with "mind" could be dangerous. "I want something" isn't exactly equal to "I have a mind about something" or "I think about something." To a free-will libertarian, choosing something can be done mindfully or mindlessly, doesn't really matter. The only thing that truly matters to him is that he chooses. This matter can even be stretched much more by saying that a free-will libertarian doesn't really care whether or not it is HE HIMSELF that chooses. It may even be the universe or the "great soul of everything" or God, anything basically, that does the actual choosing. Knowing the fact about it isn't really appealing to a free-will libertarian. Well of course a truly consistent free-will libertarian would want to know such fact, and would want to assure that he himself really does the choosing. But what I'm saying here is that mindful or mindless choosing isn't the CORE of this matter.
"I've always believed that evil is born in a cold heart and a weak mind." - Mike Atkins

reincarnated
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Posted 11/07/09 - 03:19 AM:	#75
Wirya wrote: I believe the real issue here is "will" and not "mind." Or it is not? Isn't the "will" a product of the "mind"? Wirya wrote: To a free-will libertarian, choosing something can be done mindfully or mindlessly, doesn't really matter. The only thing that truly matters to him is that he chooses. Are you saying it does not matter to you whether your choices are random or not? Wirya wrote: This matter can even be stretched much more by saying that a free-will libertarian doesn't really care whether or not it is HE HIMSELF that chooses. It may even be the universe or the "great soul of everything" or God, anything basically, that does the actual choosing. But this is effectively what the determinist is saying - that the decision is determined (for him) by deterministic forces. Are you saying that a free-will libertarian would accept determinism as being true? Wirya wrote: Knowing the fact about it isn't really appealing to a free-will libertarian. I can understand why "knowing the fact about it" is not appealing to a free-will libertarian, because "the fact about it" must boil down (eventually) to deterministic or random forces. The free-will libertarian avoids this unsavoury conclusion by declining to probe too deeply. Wirya wrote: Well of course a truly consistent free-will libertarian would want to know such fact, and would want to assure that he himself really does the choosing. As a compatibilist, I am sure that I myself really do the choosing - its just that "I" am part of the deterministic process of choosing and the choosing is completely compatible with determinism. Wirya wrote: But what I'm saying here is that mindful or mindless choosing isn't the CORE of this matter. Again, you seem to be saying that you would be happy accepting that your choices are random? (ie mindless choosing)? As for mindful choosing, how can one defend the notion that one's choices are mindful if one's mind is not "made up" until the moment of choice, and one does not know in advance what one would choose in a given situation?
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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Posted 11/07/09 - 07:01 AM:	#76
reincarnated wrote: You seem to be confusing free will with unpredictability. There's no confusion in my mind. The point is that saying "you couldn't have chosen heads" only after I have chosen tails is pretty much like claiming there is an invisible intangible unicorn in the room. It can't be proved to be wrong, but it does not correspond to what anybody has experienced. The point here is not simply that in a given instance you cannot predict an event, but that it seemed I was free to make the choice and you are suggesting, based on no evidence, that this was an illusion. reincarnated wrote: Its trivial to show that even a completely deterministic machine can be unpredictable in exactly the sense you have described. L I described the experience of consciously choosing which way up to place a coin. I don't believe you can build a machine to have that experience. But this is beside the point. I am not creating an objective test for free will. I think it ridiculous for us to try and look at this from outside our own heads. I am describing a subjective experience and suggesting that dismissing subjective experience without justification is absurd and incompatible with living life as a human being. reincarnated wrote: Thanks for telling me how I can and cannot live. Sorry? Is that meant to be an argument? If I said you couldn't run at 400mph would you have got snarky about somebody telling you how you can or cannot run? When I say people cannot live as if they don't have free will I am not making a recommendation, I am pointing out that people cannot live without making conscious choices even though that is exactly what they would have to do without free will. reincarnated wrote: I don’t believe that I have free will (of the metaphysical libertarian variety), I believe that all of my choices and decisions are determined by antecedent states If you believe your choices and decisions are already determined in any practical way then you would not need to bother making them. I suppose you can declare after you have made a choice that your choice was already determined, but you cannot actually make a choice that has already been determined, unless you move into invisible, intangible unicorn territory, and believe in something that simply has no connection to your actual experience of making a choice, and beyond it, into the territory of declaring your actual experiences to be illusory.

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Posted 11/07/09 - 07:38 AM:	#77
'Will' means something is going to happen and no-one has a choice about that. Something is definately giong to happen. A person might think he determines the event yet he does not determine the consequence. It's not free at all. An action is merely a reaction to a previous action. Action and reaction are simultaneous = the same thing by different names. For a ride that starts nowhere and goes nowhere it really is best to enjoy the journey.
I know that I don't know, so I don't know if I do.

reincarnated
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Posted 11/07/09 - 07:46 AM:	#78
oldandrew wrote: There's no confusion in my mind. The point is that saying "you couldn't have chosen heads" only after I have chosen tails is pretty much like claiming there is an invisible intangible unicorn in the room. It can't be proved to be wrong, but it does not correspond to what anybody has experienced. The point here is not simply that in a given instance you cannot predict an event, but that it seemed I was free to make the choice and you are suggesting, based on no evidence, that this was an illusion. I have no idea what you are referring to here. Who has suggested that we say “you couldn't have chosen heads" only after you have chosen tails? I have never said this. oldandrew wrote: I described the experience of consciously choosing which way up to place a coin. I don't believe you can build a machine to have that experience. What does conscious experience have to do with your example as written? Your post was: oldandrew wrote: I have a coin in my pocket. When I take it out I can place it on the table heads up or tails up. If I don't have free will, can you tell me which way up I cannot choose to place it? Was this post supposed to be a description of free will in action? If so, then (as I described already) I can build a deterministic machine which accomplishes exactly the same thing – it does not need to be conscious, and it does not need to possess free will, in order for it to place a coin on the table either heads up or tails up, in complete defiance of your prediction. Hence, I do not see the relevance of your post. oldandrew wrote: I am describing a subjective experience and suggesting that dismissing subjective experience without justification is absurd and incompatible with living life as a human being. What “subjective experience of free will” do you believe that you have, can you describe it in detail? What does it feel like? Why do you think that every human being must behave as if it possessed this free will? How do you think one’s behavior would be any different if one did not believe that one had this free will? oldandrew wrote: When I say people cannot live as if they don't have free will I am not making a recommendation, I am pointing out that people cannot live without making conscious choices even though that is exactly what they would have to do without free will. That is exactly what I mean. You are telling me that I cannot live my life genuinely believing that I do not have free will. I do indeed make conscious choices, but I do not believe they are free will choices in the sense that you mean free will. Hence your assertion is false. oldandrew wrote: If you believe your choices and decisions are already determined in any practical way then you would not need to bother making them. No? If I don’t make them, how would they be made? How would I arrive at a decision about what to do,, if I do not go through the process of deliberation which arrives at that decision? The choices still need to be made – the logically possible alternatives still need to be evaluated - they are simply deterministic choices, that’s all. oldandrew wrote: I suppose you can declare after you have made a choice that your choice was already determined, but you cannot actually make a choice that has already been determined, unless you move into invisible, intangible unicorn territory, and believe in something that simply has no connection to your actual experience of making a choice, and beyond it, into the territory of declaring your actual experiences to be illusory. You seem to define a choice as a (metaphysical libertarian) free will choice, I do not. A choice is simply an evaluation of logically alternate possible solutions, arriving at a preferred solution. Completely compatible with determinism. I do not know what that choice is until I have been through the process of evaluation – the process of evaluation is how I arrive at knowledge of the choice. To say that I do not need to go through this process perhaps suggests that I should gain access to the answer by divine revelation? Edited by reincarnated on 11/07/09 - 07:56 AM
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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Posted 11/07/09 - 09:03 AM:	#79
reincarnated wrote: I have no idea what you are referring to here. Who has suggested that we say “you couldn't have chosen heads" only after you have chosen tails? I have never said this. Then I baffled as to what made you think I was talking about unpredictability. reincarnated wrote: What does conscious experience have to do with your example as written? I talked about choosing to do something. If something is not consciously decided then you haven't chosen it. reincarnated wrote: Was this post supposed to be a description of free will in action? If so, then (as I described already) I can build a deterministic machine which accomplishes exactly the same thing [quote] I have answered this point, please don't just repeat it. [quote=reincarnated] What “subjective experience of free will” do you believe that you have, can you describe it in detail? What does it feel like? The experience is that I make conscious choices. No, I am not describing that to you. I'm sure you do as well. reincarnated wrote: Why do you think that every human being must behave as if it possessed this free will? How do you think one’s behavior would be any different if one did not believe that one had this free will? If you could not choose between options, you would not make an effort to choose. reincarnated wrote: That is exactly what I mean. You are telling me that I cannot live my life genuinely believing that I do not have free will. No, you can believe what you like. What you cannot do is live your life acting as though you believed this. reincarnated wrote: You seem to define a choice as a (metaphysical libertarian) free will choice, I do not. A choice is simply an evaluation of logically alternate possible solutions, arriving at a preferred solution. Completely compatible with determinism. I think I've answered this point on another thread earlier today. Changing the subject from free will to determinism is not an argument about free will, it is an evasion.

reincarnated
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Posted 11/07/09 - 10:25 AM:	#80
oldandrew wrote: Then I baffled as to what made you think I was talking about unpredictability. Then what on earth were you talking about? Again, your claim was: oldandrew wrote: I have a coin in my pocket. When I take it out I can place it on the table heads up or tails up. If I don't have free will, can you tell me which way up I cannot choose to place it? “can you tell me which way up I cannot choose to place it” is a question about predicting which way up you are able to choose to place the coin, is it not? oldandrew wrote: I talked about choosing to do something. If something is not consciously decided then you haven't chosen it. So say you. In my book, deterministic machines can also make choices. oldandrew wrote: The experience is that I make conscious choices. No, I am not describing that to you. I'm sure you do as well. Why won’t you describe it to me? I can assure you, I have no feeling of (metaphysical libertarian) free will when I make decisions as to what to do, so I am genuinely curious as to what it feels like. Since you claim to subjectively experience this phenomenon of (metaphysical libertarian) free will, I really would like to know what it feels like. Why won’t you tell me? oldandrew wrote: If you could not choose between options, you would not make an effort to choose. How else would I arrive at my decision? Is my decision supposed to appear to me in a flash, like a divine inspiration? I can only arrive at a deterministic decision by following a deterministic process. If anything, it is surely the metaphysical libertarian who does not need to deliberate, since his choices are completely free and not dependent on any deterministic processing? oldandrew wrote: No, you can believe what you like. What you cannot do is live your life acting as though you believed this. But in fact I do. I do not live my life acting like I have free will, and I do not live my life acting like I believe that I have free will. How would you expect a person, who did not believe in free will, to act? How do you think they would act any differently to the way that you act? I really am very curious. oldandrew wrote: I think I've answered this point on another thread earlier today. Changing the subject from free will to determinism is not an argument about free will, it is an evasion. You seem to continuously misunderstand. I am not “arguing” about free will at this point – I am simply stating that I define free will differently to the way that you do. That’s not an argument, it’s a statement of fact.
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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