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It is raining

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It is raining

Cheshire
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Posted 10/29/09 - 12:11 PM:	#21
Is raining being used as a gerund? Making raining the subject?
Or not.

Banno
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Posted 10/29/09 - 12:12 PM:	#22
xzJoel wrote: Non-referential indexicals, Banno? Is an assault upon the Cogito to follow? Already done that. You must have missed it.
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Willowz
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Posted 10/29/09 - 01:06 PM:	#23
Banno wrote: Then what do you think it is doing? I can't tell you definitely what is going on because I am not in a place where it is raining, but surly something is going on in such a place.
This song will prepare you for a good smile.

xzJoel
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Posted 10/29/09 - 01:21 PM:	#24
Banno wrote: Already done that. You must have missed it. Damn. I was too busy thinking and not busy enough paying attention.
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mutemaler
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Posted 10/29/09 - 01:42 PM:	#25
You could say "there is no subject" and I would agree, but it doesn't really say anything more. And so instead of looking for a subject which does not exist, or creating elaborate solutions, I think it is better to simply restate the question to this: What is it exactly which forces us in english to insert a subject into sentences which obviously do not need them? And the question made me immediately think of one of my favorite books, because as I recall the author used this very example (it is raining) in contrasting the languages of western and chinese traditions (and the way of seeing them, their theory). The book is very thick, and I looked for the passage anyway, and actually found it (rather quickly in fact, kind of surprised me). Here it is: Our folk theory of language stresses another accidental feature, especially of English. Our grammatical training includes the imperative to speak and write in complete sentences. A complete sentence expresses a complete thought. Our ideology emphasizes that a complete senence has both a subject and a predicate. In English, even in slightly bizarre contexts, we grammatically require the subject term (as in "It is raining"). Although, logically, the typical sentence is equally about all the terms used in it, our grammar ideology teaches us that the predicate says something about the subject. Thus a standard thought is about some object and describes that object in a certain way. Chad Hansen, "A Daoist Theory of Chinese Thought, A Philosophical Interpretation" And since I am learning sign (just came from class tonight in fact), I was thinking how I would say that in sign. Probably say "now rain", "there rain" (to "fix" it), or just "rain" if it was clear from context. In any case the "it" would definitely not be part of german sign, although it is part of spoken german just like the english example ("es regnet").

SIR2U
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Posted 10/29/09 - 04:19 PM:	#26
Banno, "It is Thursday" Ok, so what is "IT" Both your and my sentences are the same grammatically. The pronoun "IT" takes the place of whatever is the legitimate subject and therefore becomes the subject of the sentence from a grammatical point of view. The problem you have is finding what "IT" is replacing. Technically you would replace the pronoun with the real subject for the sentence to continue to make the same sence or have the same meaning. So from my point of view it would have to be "the weather".
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Cadrache
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Posted 10/29/09 - 04:20 PM:	#27
I'm similar to Unenlightened. I'd claim that the Action of the Verb is the subject. To run is running. Unfortunately this also concludes that all verbs are in reality nouns.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Hanover
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Posted 10/29/09 - 04:38 PM:	#28
Banno wrote: When faced with "it is raining", it is just obtuse to ask "what is raining?"; or it indicates a lack of understanding of English. There is no subject in "It is raining". "The rain rains" is a fabrication. "It" is the subject unquestionably. The question is what the pronoun "it" refers to. It is running; it is happening; it is listening. All those sentences are the same in that they have vague references. I don't know what is running, happening, or listening in those sentences because nobody has told me. I would assume the sky is raining or perhaps the clouds, but it could be the Treasury raining money.
"Nothing is impossible for the man who will not listen to reason." John Belushi, "Animal House" "I have opinions of my own --strong opinions-- but I don't always agree with them." G.W. Bush

Willowz
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Posted 10/29/09 - 07:08 PM:	#29
So is it raining?
This song will prepare you for a good smile.

Banno
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Posted 10/29/09 - 10:53 PM:	#30
SIR2U wrote: Technically you would replace the pronoun with the real subject for the sentence to continue to make the same sence or have the same meaning. So from my point of view it would have to be "the weather". It's raining weather? Another fabrication. Too big a stretch, surly.
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

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